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Teacher Fired For Breaking Up Fight

She was a teacher working in a tough school. Two boys got in a fight. They were pounding on each other. She wanted them to stop. So she grabbed a broom and whacked them. And, the fight stopped.

Unfortunately for the teacher, she broke the law. Even her Union agrees she deserved to be fired:

Keith Johnson, president of the Detroit Federation of Teachers, said he understood the teacher’s motive for using the broom, but said she was wrong for using the object as she did.

"Unfortunately, the method that she used, in terms of swatting one with a broom, is a violation of the corporal punishment provision under the Michigan school code,” Johnson said. “But she's caught in a quandary because under that same code she's expected to do what is necessary to diffuse a situation.”

Best quote from the story: -- Kiren Lowery, one of the students who has admitted to taking part in the fight, said the fired teacher was one of his favorites, but added he doesn’t feel responsible for her termination. She should have waited for security to come, he told MyFoxDetroit.com.

Here is the sad tale: -- Web Link

Arm the teachers! -- Web Link


Comments

I guess it's not "Teacher Appreciation Week" in Detroit?


What corporal punishment?

Breaking up a fight is not administering corporal punishment.

If what she did was technically wrong, she should, perhaps been lectured and asked to promise not to sin again.

Fired? I suppose that it was one of hose zero tolerance rules, although you would expect that the educators would have more sense than to apply such rules to themselves. They should pay more attention to Congress.

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It's go to know that a public school teacher can actually be fired. Now it they'd only start firing them for the right reasons ...


I have a close relative who spent a good portion of their career helping districts fire teachers and administrators. It's actually not difficult.

It's much more difficult getting qualified people to teach a subject when they can make 4x in the private sector.


Corporal punishment is the result in the court martialt of naughty sergeant.


>>when they can make 4x in the private sector.<<

You have got to get a hold on what is going on in the world.


You have got to get a hold on what is going on in the world.

Barnus: What do you mean, exactly?


What I mean is that, generally, teachers could not get jobs outside of education that provided them with the short hours, the time off, the generous benefits or the salaries they enjoy as teachers.


Barnus, I think that attitude is a double-edged sword. If we were to treat education with higher expectations (rather than as an elaborate aging vat for children), demand much higher skills from teachers, pay for them and run a year-round program, we'd see much better results.

To blame teachers for the current state of education, while not demanding the same level of care and skill, nor investing as deeply in teacher training as we do with, say, a nurse or doctor, is useless.


^^^ I have a close relative who spent a good portion of their career helping districts fire teachers and administrators. It's actually not difficult. ^^^

That it takes someone with special skills to fire a teacher is a measure of how difficult it is to fire teachers. Were it easy, a simple declaration by the school principal would be adequate.

It is not uncommon for school districts to shuffle bad teachers around. It's easier to get rid of them that way than it is to fire them. And then there are the NYC public schools. They keep hundreds of vile teachers on the payroll. Away from students, but still on the payroll. John Stossel has done several stories on that fiasco.

Barnus is right. You need to get more familiar with reality.


>> If we were to treat education with higher expectations (rather than as an elaborate aging vat for children), demand much higher skills from teachers, pay for them and run a year-round program, we'd see much better results.<<

I agree with all of that - though I might argue that we already pay them to run a year-round program.

The problem starts with the teacher education system. Four year teacher education programs are counter productive. They rob prospective teachers of a good liberal arts or scientific education.

It is quite unlikely that teachers, particularly those with sub-standard college educations (most) could do better in the private sector seems unlikely to me.


Teachers go through a 1-2 year program these days and most have a 4 year degree.

Once gain, the notion that, It is quite unlikely that teachers, particularly those with sub-standard college educations (most) could do better in the private sector seems unlikely to me is self-manifesting, IMHO.

First, most teachers have 4 year degrees. I'm not sure what you consider sub-standard, so I won't go there. Secondly, if a teaching career meant receiving the same rewards as business, law or medicine, you'd see an entirely different set of people entering the profession.

I seriously wonder if Americans want a quality, demanding and rewarding system. There are a dozen reasons why the US LIKES the schools the way they are today. There are only two reasons the system isn't what it could be - investment and commitment.


Francis stated,

That it takes someone with special skills to fire a teacher is a measure of how difficult it is to fire teachers. Were it easy, a simple declaration by the school principal would be adequate.

I'm not sure a simple declaration should be sufficient - there should be some process behind the evaluation - but I agree in concept. The Principal is the CEO of the school.


>>First, most teachers have 4 year degrees.<<

Most have 4 year degrees in education. In the education program, the same course is repeated over and over under different names and with different slants. Much of it is no more than propaganda to prepare malleable students to be devoted adherents and supporters of the education system that is not working. Dissent and creativity are discouraged and even punished. The education program is considered to be an easy program and attracts the less able and less ambitious students. That is by design.

Teachers should be required to win a standard, legitimate 4 year degree in the sciences or liberal arts to be eligible for the job - plus some specialized training AFTER winning that degree. A good hard working summer should do it - and often does.

Education in America has suffered and will continue to suffer and get worse as unionization holds sway and, even worse, Federal influence and control increases and becomes controlling.

That's my two cents.


From edweek.org re. the survey results linked below:

More than half of public school teachers hold at least a Master’s degree. In the overall teaching force, there has been a slight shift in highest degree held. In 2005, a master’s degree in education was the highest degree held by nearly half of the teaching force (47 percent); an additional 10 percent held a Master’s degree in a field other than education. In 2011, the proportion of the teaching force holding masters’ degrees in education as their highest degree was 43 percent; 12 percent held Master’s degrees. The proportion of teachers whose highest degree is a non-education degree rose from 21percent in 2005 to 27 percent in 2011

Web Link

So, the trend is a positive one whereby more and more teachers are getting degrees in fields other than education. For example, my oldest, a college teacher, is getting their MBA right now. I once taught mathematics and have degrees/studies in two very different fields. I have siblings with JD's and other doctorates who have taught in education and other fields.

Once again, it's chicken and egg: If we denigrate teachers and blame everyone but ourselves for the state of the state, we make slower progress. A patent blaming of unions is convenient, but symptomatic of a field that gets lots of responsibility and little respect or finance. I'd rather help with the change than stand outside of it and throw stones. It's too critical an issue to blame someone else for the pandemic problems. In essence, we are all the education system in America in that we are stewards of our fate. It's an investment everyone makes regardless of their direct involvement.

Furthermore, you can see newer teachers coming into the field, for the most part, want change:

The findings throughout this survey illustrate striking differences between this non-traditional population of new teachers and teachers who enter teaching through undergraduate and graduate college campus-based teacher education programs, especially in attitudes concerning current proposed school reform measures and ways to strengthen teaching as a profession, such as:

Getting rid of tenure for teachers

Performance-based pay

Market-driven teacher pay–paying teachers more to teach in high needs schools and high demand subjects

Recruiting individuals from other careers into teaching and school administration

Using student achievement to evaluate teacher effectiveness

The findings also show amazing similarities among all teachers surveyed, regardless of their backgrounds, how they prepared to teach, their age, how long they’ve been teaching and other variables we analyzed the data by. Public school teachers surveyed:

Strongly support getting rid of incompetent teachers regardless of seniority

Are generally satisfied with their jobs and various aspects of teaching

Think they are competent to teach

Rate their teacher preparation programs highly

Consider the same things as valuable in developing competence to teach–

their own teaching experiences and working with other teachers/colleagues top the list

Plan to be teaching K-12 five years from now

I'd like to see us get to the same point more sophisticated cultures have with regards to education - increase expectations, increase the focus and funding and reap the rewards rather than devalue and denigrate education and pretend it's someone else's problem. It's not: It's an investment we're making every day.


^^^ The education program is considered to be an easy program and attracts the less able and less ambitious students. That is by design. ^^^

There is some truth to that. Virtually all of my college friends that did poorly during their initial semesters switched to education. That included liberal arts, engineering and pre-med students.

"If you can't learn, then teach!"


"If you can't learn, then teach!"

That supports my point about the disrespect and "not my problem" lack of stewardship. Easy to point to teaching as a cesspool, denigrate it and then point to it as a failure. Once again, self-manifesting. Other cultures and societies are much smarter about education and see the value and investment opportunity and wisdom.

That Francis would pull out that old saw does not surprise me at all.


There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the "old saw" is true. I've seen it myself. So have others. Many teachers I know admit it.

That some can't exposes their aversion to reality.


There is much anecdotal evidence that some conservatives were mistreated as children. Therefore the reason people are conservative is that they were mistreated as children.

My personal opinion, based upon my personal relationships, is that the grade point levels of those who went into the teaching profession were well below average.


All children are mistreated by liberal Democrats that gleefully saddle future generation with massive debt so that their political party can "win."


There's more than anecdotal evidence that conservative people are not as smart as liberal counterparts.

Web Link

However, I'm believe those lacking intelligence, willpower and imagination are less likely to understand an issue and, therefore, see it as unresolvable and make platitudinous proclamations about it rather than fix it. Stuck in a rut, so to speak. Not dumb, just stubborn and uneasy about change.


Boney stated,

My personal opinion, based upon my personal relationships, is that the grade point levels of those who went into the teaching profession were well below average.

Once again, self-manifesting. Who would choose teaching when they can make bank elsewhere and not have to deal with the results of people's poor parenting?

Like I said, change the field and you'll change all of that, but Americans don't want that. We will continue to, at best, get what we pay for and, for some strange reasons, what we desire as a culture.


Coasters, thank you for your response to my little rant.

I am not able to just forget my own observations, but your cogent response replete with evidence and numbers that I may accept with some misgiving but certainly cannot ignore along with your own personal experiences offer great hope.

Your response, which maintains perspective and never resorts to hyperbole or talk down is, to my mind, exemplary of the type of discussion we should be having here.

Barnus

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Barnus - no problem. Thank you.


The broom tactic always worked for the nuns and for Irish Mothers.


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