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George vs Trayvon

Here's a fresh place to go at it instead of using other threads.


Comments

I see your reasoning but can't agree with it BMTHOTB.

It sounds like the neighborhood had been hit with robberies vandalism and whatnot and they needed to watch for potential crooks.

When George calls the police he's describing weird behavior, not that Trayvon is black:

"This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something," Zimmerman tells the 911 operator. "He's just staring, looking at all the houses. Now he's coming toward me. He's got his hand in his waistband. Something's wrong with him."

It's the behavior. The kid is acting like one of those crooks who size up the houses for future raids and stare too long at them.

People need to be careful not to appear nosy and stare if they're dressed like hoodlums.

Then there's the fact that Trayvon was into drugs. Making them, maybe selling them too. Maybe it made him act weird.

I myself called the police when some teens (white) came door to door selling fake cleaning products just for the chance to look into the house. It was so obvious the way they pushed past me to squirt the picture window and look inside. You might have heard about them. "Scamway" products, lol.

I also size up people by the kind of clothes they wear, how they walk, if they slouch around like a gangsta with an FU attitude.

Nice people look you in the eye and smile regardless of age background or color.

It's not unreasonable that George might think Trayvon was up to no good for the way he acted and his dress not his color. If he was sizing up houses in George's mind then in George's mind he was beginning a crime.

I can see how that could be miscontrued.

Then "these assholes always get away" means they need to be arrested before they rob another house.

I don't see race here.


Not much outrage or press coverage to this story:

Wonder if Obama could imagine any of these youths as looking like his son if he had one:

Web Link

precocious, a resident of Moss Beach, on August 11, 2013 at 11:20 am


Web Link


To state the obvious difference, no one died in that beating caught on tape.


The obvious difference is three against one.


"Not saying you have but Barnus, Just Sayin' and many others have implied that per Trayvon's profile, he was deserving of enhanced suspicion."

I said that martin looked suspicious. That is because, in the circumstances, he looked suspicious.

This case had nothing to do with race until folk like Sharpton and the President made it racial. Folks here continue to make it racial.

Racial strife in America is never going to end as long as people like Sharpton and The President and some folk here keep stirring up racism. Doing that is racist.


People need to be careful not to appear nosy and stare if they're dressed like hoodlums.

If he was sizing up houses in George's mind then in George's mind he was beginning a crime.

I cannot argue with that kind of logic.

It's not unreasonable that George might think Trayvon was up to no good for the way he acted and his dress not his color.

Two out of three ain't bad.

Then "these assholes always get away" means they need to be arrested before they rob another house.

But Trayvon had not robbed any houses. The whole crime was construed in Zimmerman's mind. All Zimmerman had to go on was this:

1) A kid shuffling about in an area that is well lit while talking on a cell phone.

2) A kid wearing a hoodie.

Based on those two things, Zimmerman concluded that Trayvon was an asshole who was getting away.

I have done that a couple times this month. When I ride to work, I wear a hoodie. When my cell rings, I stop riding or walking, and pretty much mill about until I am done. I see this behavior everyday around office complexes. I have never felt like anybody profiled me because I wear a hoodie. Why do you suppose that is? Maybe my complexion?

People need to be careful not to appear nosy and stare if they're dressed like hoodlums.

Still can't get around that one.

Then there's the fact that Trayvon was into drugs. Making them, maybe selling them too. Maybe it made him act weird.

The dead version of Trayvon was drug tested: -- Web Link

They found a minimal amount of pot. Nothing else. The guy who shot Trayvon may himself been on drugs, possibly steroids, which made him act weird. One problem though, the guy who shot the kid wasn't tested for drugs: -- Web Link

Hmm. Trayvon is on some weed. Zimmerman uses Temazepam. Among the side effects of Temazepam are these:

weak or shallow breathing;

fast or pounding heartbeats;

confusion, slurred speech, unusual thoughts or behavior;

hallucinations, agitation, aggression; -- Web Link


For me-truly mind bending that folks, measuring the facts, still insist race was not a factor in this instance. You can call me whatever you please Barnus but I believe firmly that Zimmerman was inclined to follow Martin based primarily on his race and fashion choice, that Martin, as is the case with thousands of young black men in this country, was profiled, that the police handled the investigation one way based upon the race of the victim (it is inexcusable that they did not test Zimmerman for drugs, impound his vehicle or canvas the area for witnesses).

Racial strife in America is never going to end as long as folks like you continue to deny its existence and blame those insisting on change for its presence. Have a serious conversation with any young black in America and ask questions Barnus. Listen to their stories. Then look me in the eye and tell me justice is doled out equally for all. It has become the convenient mantra of the true racist-if you try to discuss the role racism has played and continues to play in our country, you are labeled the racist. Fine by me. My label for you Barnus is blindly ignorant.


"" All he saw was Trayvon, shuffling aimlessly while talking to a girl on his phone."

Wrong. He saw a man acting suspiciously. He was on neighborhood watch. He did what he was susposed to do - he called it in. Martin died because he took it on himself to start a fight and beat on a man.

All the spin that you keep putting on the facts is just that - spin. The prosecutors tried the same thing because they had NO real, actual evidence. The jury saw right through it. Some on the Jury would have liked ti convict Zimmerman. They couldn't do it because there was no evidence on which to find him guilty. That didn't satisfy the Race Baiters - so they kept it up and are still keeping it up.


"I believe firmly that Zimmerman was inclined to follow Martin based primarily on his race and fashion choice" - - - - - I know. I also know that you have no reason to believe that.

"Racial strife in America is never going to end as long as folks like you continue to deny its existence and blame those insisting on change for its presence." - - - - - I have never denied the existence of racial problems in America. You made that up. I did say that race had nothing to do with this case. So did the prosecutors. So did the judge because there was NO evidence of it. Zimmerman was known by those who knew him to be free of bad feelings about blacks. The prosecution searched for evidence to the contrary and found none.

" My label for you Barnus is blindly ignorant." - - - - - That says a lot about you, Frank.


there is no evidence beyond Zimmerman's statement that Martin STARTED a fight. None. The suspicious behavior, all based on Zimmerman's judgement of such behavior, no other witnesses. The spin is all you Barnus....and Zimmerman. The jury finding Zimmerman innocent, the way the case was tried by the prosecution, does not mean justice was served. The real Race Baiters are the folks who refuse to consider the way race impacts cases like this one. Zimmerman did what he was "supposed to" until he disobeyed the dispatcher, got out of his vehicle and followed or confronted Martin.

I am actually sad for you Barnus.


He did what he was susposed to do - he called it in.

Then did what he was not supposed to and followed Trayvon.

Martin died because he took it on himself to start a fight and beat on a man.

Nobody know who started the fight. Just because Trayvon was winning does not mean he started the fight. For all you know, Trayvon was trying to prevent Zimmerman from using the gun.

I don't know who started the fight. Nobody does. Yet you continue to state as if it was a fact that Trayvon started the fight. Based on what? The words of a man who may have been hallucinating and agitated?

How is that you know who started the fight? Is that your opinion? Did you intuit it? Do you have evidence? Is it because Zimmerman decided Trayvon was an asshole trying to get away? Is it the profile of hoodie wearers?


Race was not the issue, fashion is the issue.


The full transcript with time notes. Web Link

The 911 operator mentions race first. It's raining but Martin is standing around looking at houses. That is strange behavior.

++++++++++++

Zimmerman

Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, it's Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher

OK, and this guy is he white, black, or hispanic?

Zimmerman

He looks black.

Dispatcher

Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman

Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's here now, he was just staring.

Dispatcher

OK, he's just walking around the area…

Zimmerman

looking at all the houses.


It's pretty bad when Oprah can't get the retail clerk in Switzerland to let her look at a $38,000 purse because she thinks Oprah doesn't look like she can afford it. What was Oprah wearing anyway? It had to be her skin color, not her outfit.


Web Link


If Zimmerman lay dead and Martin, the self annointed neighborhood watch guy with a gun, stood there claiming self defense... is there anyone that believed the investigation would have been handled the same? Do you believe Zimmermans dead blood tested for drugs but not Trayvon? Do you believe Trayvon gets questioned and released? Just say that is what you believe. Would it be different if Zimmerman was wearing a hoodie?


If there were a video of the entire scene and it was Trayvon who jumped and hit George would that stop people from screaming racism?

Probably not.

After all George called the police.

After all George followed him.

After all Trayvon had a right to walk around a neighborhood he didn't live in while George who lives there could not?

What odd logic.

Evidence:

There was no evidence who started the fight.

There is no evidence George did anything wrong or confronted Trayvon.

Do you two BMTHOTB and Frank J want to live in a country where people are convicted without evidence?

Last, please stop saying people on Talk About are racist when there is no evidence they are.

That's called bullying to get your own way Frank. You'll probably do it to me too.


Frank we don't know what those police would have done in the alternate scenario you described.

They might have acted badly for all we know.

It doesn't mean George did.


Pan- if your child lay dead and the police tested his corpse for drugs but not the person confessing to killing him/her, would you call that balanced policing? Would you be okay with the police not impounding the killers vehicle? How about not going door to door seeking witnesses. Do you endorse Barnus calling me a racist because of my belief that race absolutely played a role in this case? We don't know what would have happened if the roles were reversed. We also don't know what happened. We only know what Zimmerman CLAIMS happened.


My sentiments exactly BMTHOTB

Zimmerman innocent until proven guilty

Martin guilty until proven innocent

Problem, Martin unable to defend himself in court because he's dead


"Just say that is what you believe." - - - - - I believe that if the situation were reversed and Martin shot Zimmerman, the case would never have become a major media event, and folk would not be crying racism to stir up racial strife.

-

"How is that you know who started the fight? Is that your opinion? Did you intuit it? Do you have evidence?"

I know that Martin bragged about his fighting ability.

I know that after the dispatcher told Zimmerman that he did not need to follow Martin and Zimmerman said OK and returned to his car there was a 4 minute period that Martin used to follow Zimmerman rather than leave.

I know that Zimmerman could see that Martin was easily his physical superior and that it would be foolish for him to start a fight.

I know that two witnesses saw what was happening - one said the guy in the red jacket was on the bottom- that was Zimmerman - the other said that the bigger man was on top - that was Martin.

I know that it is very unlikely that Zimmerman threw the first punch because Martin had no bruises on him other than scraped knuckles and Zimmerman took many punches - one breaking his nose. That was likely the first punch.

That may not prove absolutely that Martin started the fight, but it is strong evidence that he did.

Please consider the evidence.


^^^ ... but I believe firmly that Zimmerman was inclined to follow Martin based primarily on his race and fashion choice ... ^^^

There's thinking, and there's believing.

The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling. -- Thomas Sowell.


Problem, Martin unable to defend himself in court because he's dead.

More like Martin unable to defend himself because he didn't carry a gun. If Martin had had a gun and been the faster draw: -- Web Link

Just imagine. Trayvon Martin, a skinny beanpole of a teenage Tea Party hero, up there on the stage with Glenn Beck, Bocephus, or Ted Nugent, heck, maybe all three, telling the folks how he suspected he was being chased by a drug addled pervert having hallucinations and had to quick draw 'em. Picture the hoodies that would fly out the door with graphics of Trayvon sporting the pistol that plugged the bad guy.

It could happen: -- Web Link


"Zimmerman saw a hoodie. Strike one. He saw Trayvon shuffling around while talking on a phone. Strike two. The asshole ran and was getting away. Strike three."

You, and others seem to believe that the hoodie was significant. You know full well that wearind hooded sweatshirts is not something peculiar to blacks.

Martin, according to the initial report was not simply shuffling around talking on a cel phone. He was walking, in the rain, in a grassy area off the sidewalk, looking at the buildings in an area that was seeing an inordinate amount of burglary and breakins. That is exactly the kind of suspicious behavior that a neighborhood watch person should notice and call in.

Your continued implication that the use of the word "asshole" is somehow significant is just silly.

Why are we talking about "Zimmerman" and "Trayvon?"

-


Does ANYONE believe that continuing to treat this tragedy as a racial incident will do ANYTHING to help race relations?

Did Sharpton believe that?

Did the president believe that?


I know that Martin bragged about his fighting ability.

Mercy. A seventeen year old male talking smack on Youtube. Why I never......

You know full well that wearind hooded sweatshirts is not something peculiar to blacks.

Yep. I myself have a few. One says HMB on the front of it.

Zimmerman said the asshole was getting away. Away with what? Zimmerman per his observation of a kid walking in circles, decided that kid was an asshole getting away with something.

You, and others seem to believe that the hoodie was significant.

I don't believe that the fact of a hoodie should be used when evaluating other people. Some do.

People need to be careful not to appear nosy and stare if they're dressed like hoodlums.

Others think that wearing a hoodie is asking for trouble.


I know that Martin bragged about his fighting ability- so what? Never heard of someone bragging about something they have marginal ability in? Proves zilch. Reality- Zimmerman was far more trained in MMA than Martin.

there was a 4 minute period that Martin followed Zimmerman- huh? According to who? Assumption

I know that Zimmerman could see Martin was his physical superior- Hmmm. Martin was 5'11" 156LBS. I know Barnus, you have never heard of a shorter, stocky fellow thinking they are the physical equal of a 17 year old skinny kid.

2 witnesses- man I would have loved to cross examine them. I don't think them being 100% certain Martin was on top proves anything beyond, at that moment Martin seemed to have an advantage over an armed man who would ultimately shoot him dead

I know it was very unlikely that Zimmerman threw the first punch. So? Assumption that Martin was the aggressor and not throwing a punch to protect himself against a gun wielding individual that followed and confronted him.

Honeybadger- the Sowell quote is a good first step at self evaluation

Having a thoughtful conversation about racial profiling, race impact on police investigations and yes the role race played in the Trayvon Martin situation will, in my humble opinion, be a great step towards identifying areas where changes need to occur.


Web Link

some actually get it


Web Link

and then there is this opinion


Racism still exists. Blacks against whites. Hispanics against asians.

Every conceivable manner of it.

No one says it doesn't exist.

What I cannot understand is why the questionable Martin-Zimmerman case is held up as example of it.

There are more obvious cases.

Stick to something we can agree is racist so we can all work together to end it.

Don't pick a fuzzy example.


Clearly the example is fuzzy for some P.P.

That does not mean those that see the racist aspects of this case are wrong.

Yes, there are many examples of how justice was denied due to race based mistakes in police work, legal representation etc. I bet you will find many, many examples in the state of Florida alone. Read the links. Read the number of 911 calls Zimmerman made regarding something as benign as young black men, of which his neighborhood has a 20% population, walking the streets. Read the Post opinion. Many, many folks have a different view and place a different social value on this case. Shutting down conversation is not a step to anything but prolonged ignorance. Maybe our schools should stop teaching the holocaust. After all, it is old news and many folks are certain it never happened (see Mel Gibson)

Have a great day.


What I cannot understand is why the questionable Martin-Zimmerman case is held up as example of it.

Profiling people based on their hoodie is a fuzzy example of racism.

People need to be careful not to appear nosy and stare if they're dressed like hoodlums. -- Fuzzy Bigotry Example

For some reason though, I have never felt profiled due to my wearing of a hoodie. Must be something about my profile.


The result is people wasting energy quarreling over the details of the case and becoming divided instead of joining together to make some progress.


Case in point above

BMTHOTB calls me a bigot because I think it was actions and dress and not color.

I'm not interested in this any more. Go march on Main Street by yourself.


Web Link


I didn't call you a bigot pan_pan. I said people who judge by the hoodie are bigots. The quote I supplied was made by one of them.


Web Link


Martin Bashir ... now that's a credible main stream source of truth.

But I'm gaining an uderstanding of why Obama and the race-baiters are amping up racial divisions in this country -- it's their only hope of winning in 2014 and 2016.

They won't have a charismatic black man to attract people of color to the polls. So Democrats will use fear and racial tensions as recommended by Donna Brazile waaaaay back in 2011 in preparation for the 2012 campaign.


That was me BMTHOTB.

In your mind judging someone by their actions and clothes but not skin color makes someone a bigot.

California... land of flakes and nuts.


I LOVE that you say that Boo Boo. Wondered how long it would take for the trap to open. I LOVE that Bashir doesn't fit your idea of a balanced stream of info. He was giving his opinion which NOBODY would expect a person like you to agree with. Funny how your continual and historical onslaught of far right links is somehow a more legitimate source of opinion. You keep going with your ignorance and keep displaying a lack of anything resembling credibility on any issue facing minorities in this nation. And we will surely check back in 2014 and 2016 to see how your far right madness is doing.


In your mind judging someone by their actions...

What actions? A kid talking on a cell phone while shuffling about on a public pieced of grass?

....and clothes but not skin color makes someone a bigot.

Make that, "makes someone a fashion bigot".

We used to hold women responsible for being raped because the way they were dressed fit the profile of a woman who wanted it. We as a society have moved on.

I wear hoodies. I am White. I wear hoodies and have been White for many years. I have often found myself standing on corners, jabbering on the phone. Nobody has ever followed me. The cops have never stopped and frisked me. I am treated the same when I dress nice as when I dress like a service worker.

It would never occur to me that I needed to be careful about the impression I was creating because I was milling about in a public space, while wearing a hoodie, and talking on a phone. It simply would never occur to me that my actions and hoodie made me fit the profile of a hoodlum.

Just can't picture that anybody would assume that I was an asshole trying to get away with something just because I was behaving the way millions of people do, while wearing hoodies, every day.


^^^ I LOVE that Bashir doesn't fit your idea of a balanced stream of info. He was giving his opinion ... ^^^

I don't listen to Bashir -- I tune out angry minorities spewing hateful opinions. I prefer basing my opinions on facts not opinions of others.

I'm tuning you out until you become less angry, start making more sense and demonstrate a willingness to base your opinions on facts instead of feelings.

As Barnus asked in another thread -- what is wrong with you?


What's wrong with me Boo Boo is I refuse to be pushed around by hypocrites like you.

Tune me out until I become less angry? What a joker you are. You are by far the second most hate filled poster on this site.... Trolltracker edges you out. You have posted more fact less, right wing opinion blather than any individual on this site. You are a joke


Martin Bashit anger BAD

Bill O' Reily anger GOOD

Rush Limbaugh anger GOOD

Rachel Maddow anger BAD

Far Right anger GOOD

Liberal anger BAD

the truth of HoneyBadger and pals


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