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A Virtual Rasberry Teabag for Eshoo, Feinstein, Boxer and Obama

"Americans will pay more in taxes than they will spend on food, clothing and housing combined" says the Tax Foundation at this Web Link .

The bailout is now about $750 BILLION!! I hereby protest Obama, Feinstein, Boxer and local Rep Anna Eshoo for this outrageous, irresponsible debt by sending them all a virtual rasberry teabag. Why rasberry? Think sound, not flavor.


You think this is bad? Wait till this fall.

What happened to the "tea parties" being non-partisan?

Remind me, didn't the $750 billion come from money the Bush administration requested in order to save the economy? And isn't that starting to show signs of bearing fruit?

Well, I'm sure its more fun to blame the Democrats for the ills created by the Party of No. Well, except the Party of No always say yes to the oil companies and Haliburton.

Hmmm. I worked quite a bit last year, but was laid off for a while. I own a modest home and have 3 dependents. I paid about 0.9% in Federal Taxes last year. I manage to make ends meet. Sorry, I'm not buying the tea party nonsense, tell it to the Mad Hatter.

We pay 50% of our yearly income in ALL taxes. Property taxes, sales, state income, local, Federal, cap gains. Ridiculous really. California is now the highest. My two older sons pay no State Income Tax where they live. And the sales taxes for them is half what it is here locally.

Then the list gets bigger: gas taxes, utility taxes, assessments, on and on.

We are a two income household. We both have 15+ year careers in our professions, are both well educated and skilled and thus fall into a higher tax bracket with our joint income that we have WORKED for our entire life. We are middle class, we are taking calculated risks by investing, we have helped creating jobs by building houses, buying the occasional car, traveling, supporting our local economy etc. We donate a substantial part of our income to charity, we support our kids' schools.

Frankly, I am not satisfied with just making ends meet, what kind of life is that???? I want to keep what I rightfully earned, it's the fruit of my labor and dedication to my family. I come from a blue collar household and paid my way through college as did so many others to obtain the education that I need to have a well paying job and to afford the good things in life. I work 10 - 12 hours most days. I deserve every penny of what I earn. I have no problems paying taxes, but I am sick and tired of this notion that we can just keep spending and distributing money and in consequence tax those horrible 'rich' people (aka all households that earn more than 250,000 I guess these days) just a bit more. And then, at the same time, I hear the pleas to the 'rich' people to write that extra check so that the hungry can be fed, the annual 4th of July fireworks can be funded and the classrooms can be supplied. Well, obviously the redistribution of the taxpayers money to the needy is not working so well, is it now? Well, guess what, because of the expected tax burden, those checks will be much smaller or will not be written at all in the future.

I appreciate people taking time to go on the streets and have tea parties to put lawmakers on notice. It's time to stop this spending madness and to become fiscally responsible. We cannot spend our way out of this mess and put the burden on the shoulders of just a few. There is nothing left to squeeze.

If some of these so-called protesters would have spoken up at the fiscal excesses of the Bush administration I would take them at their word now. But most of them didn't, of course. I can only conclude this tea bag silliness is a GOP and Fox News-inspired partisan stunt.

Laughable. The original Boston Tea Party was anti-corporate. This reincarnation is being sponsored by the corporate elite with their ignorant citizen footsoldiers who know bunk about history. Obama has cut taxes for the majority of middle and working-class people. He is being forced to spend now because of the disastrous policies of the last 8 years.

Most ironic and laughable of all is that these same sponsors of this protest labeled any dissent or protest during the Bush fiasco as traitorous and unpatriotic.

Obama doesnt' govern by focus groups.

An honest discussion of fiscal policy begins with an understanding of not only who is paying the taxes, but also where the revenues go. As the CBPP explains, military spending, Social Security, and federal health insurance programs (Medicare, Medicaid, and the Children's Health Insurance Program), each comprise about 20 percent of the federal budget: $625 billion for defense and international security, including the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, $617 billion for Social Security for 35 million retirees, and $599 billion to the health insurance programs. Medicare alone "provides health coverage to around 45 million people who are over the age of 65 or have disabilities." At 11 percent of the 2008 budget, the next largest component are safety net programs "that provide aid (other than health insurance or Social Security benefits) to individuals and families facing hardship," such as unemployment benefits and food assistance. All other government programs -- including veterans benefits, medical research, infrastructure, education, agriculture, and thousands of other efforts -- fall in the remaining fifth of the budget. This is why responsible fiscal reform tackles big-ticket items: ending the war in Iraq, ending Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, reforming health care, and "closing the carbon loophole" in our energy policy. Ending the status quo of increased dependence on the military-industrial complex, the inefficient health care industry, and a dangerously polluting fossil-fuel energy system will not only restore balance to the federal budget but rebuild the American economy.

I think Reality Check's summary is spot on.

For some additional perspective, its worth noting that our military expenditure is more than the next 10 military expenditures COMBINED. This includes China whom we outspend by nearly a factor of 10. And we're something like twice the total expenditures of all EU countries.

As someone who was at one of the "tea Parties" I can attest to the fact that there was just as much detestation for Bush and the Republicans (aka Rino's) as for Obama.

Everyone is aware he is new to the job, but he is only expanding the efforts and policies of the Bush era.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Don't kid yourself that the Democrats will make taxation more palatable.

Tax reform should be a non-partizan issue.

You can argue over what is a worthwile expenditure of taxpayer monies, but you can not argue that the amount, and the efforts required to comply, are exccessive and need to be restrained.

What policies is he expanding (besides the war in Afghanistan and the secrecy claims of the executive branch, which are unacceptable)?

The vast majority of the income gains in the United States over the last three decades have gone to the richest 5% of the population, largely as a result of policies that were explicitly designed to redistribute income upwards. Therefore it is far more appropriate to tax the richest 5%t of families who have prospered than the broad middle class who have suffered.

Just tried to book an 89.00 flight out of SFO.

The additional tax on the flight is 40.00.

Tax relief is a non partisan tax issue and affects everyone, especailly the poor.

as to "What policies is he expanding?" how about the original tarp bail out? just cause Bush started it does not give cart Blance to the Democrats to expand it. Transparency in Office? even the Senators dont read or say they don't know what they are authorizing -aka AIG bonuses.

So far the savior of the middle class has continued to bail out wallstreet and bankers at our expense. I hope that will change, but I dont see it as probable.

Washington will not solve our problems, they are the problem.

This coming from I guy I would bet my right leg voted Republican the last three presidential elections.

Like Kerry or Al Gore were better choices?

I vote as I choose, not as my party directs, hope you can say the same.

Better by a light year, same as Obama was over McCain.

Once again, instead of discussing the subject matter (taxes),

the thread degenerates into an us vs them dialog.

You have written me off because I may not have voted in lockstep with you, without knowing or asking why, or considering any other possible veiw points as containing any validity at all, unless it complies with your preconcieved notions.

Our nation was founded on free thought and expression. The ability to agree to disagree.

It seems those principles are no longer welcomed on the Coast or in our Society.

You acknoledged that you voted for people consistently whose viewpoints and ideology are morally bankrupt, and which are literally bankrupting our coutnry.

And you attended a protest that I find hypocritical and a total farse.

Go to taxfoundation.org.

33% of all federal income tax is paid by 1% of the taxpayers.

55% (more than HALF) is paid by 5%.

The bottom 50% of taxpayers (the ones who vote for more taxes) pay only 3.5% of all federal income taxes.

The fundamental problem is that half the voters can vote a tax increase on the rest (not affecting themselves). This is the "voting themselves largesse from the public trough" that Adam Smith warned about more than 200 years ago- it's come home to roost.

Now tell us, klosovo, how much total wealth those same people hold in comparison to the rest of us. Does your nifty little slanted website have that on it.


Templar, this thread was never about taxes. Look at the first post, it was about bashing the democrats, just at the tea parties were also about bashing the dems (surely folks watched Hannity last night where nearly every t-shirt or sign that was on camera was anti Obama. Have to give Newt Gingrich credit for trying to stay non-partisan when Hannity tried to get him to also go after Obama).

Klosovo - the figures you quote are income taxes paid... can you also quote the figures for the payroll taxes?

Making a living is something to be grateful for. If you make more than $250,000. pony up, you don't work any harder than me. I have post-grad education and WORK too. Tea-bagging is kind of a gross reference, raspberry tea bags probably tickle.

Here are some figures from the IRS - 2005

Top 10% = 22% of total income in this country

Top 10% (people making over $100,000/year) Earn 48.5% of the total income in this country

Top 300,000 earners make mor than the bottm 150,000,000 earners (that is more than 440 times the income)

Bottom line is the rich are making out like bandits and the complain about that is offensive and uncredible.

Correction to above:

Top 1% = 22% of total income in the country

So me paying 50% of my income in taxes is fair? You all seem to ignore that there are loads of taxes besides the fed taxes.

California is a basket case. Highest taxes AND biggest deficits. I don't care if you are poor or rich, this is a perscription for ultimate disaster. Paying more and more in taxes fuels the out of control system we have in place.

This discussion is a farse. It always comes to sniping over the "rich". Just like good little sheep, we lose sight of the real creeping threat of taxes eating away at many of our incomes. Some on here seem to hate people who have more money than them...gee, too bad. Grow up enough to realize that taxes are paid by us down here too and we deserve some fairness in all this.

I for one have always favored a flat tax no matter what you earn. And caps on spending (since our elected reps just cannot help themselves buying votes). In this County we have $200,000/yr firemen. Our towns will soon be bankrupted by this insane spending. To me, that is the true meaning of a tea-party. Stop this insanity

I gave the names of Eshoo, Feinstein, Boxer and Obama because they're the politicians who are supposed to represent us. Yet at every turn they concoct schemes to tax us out of existance.

After they've stolen 50% of my income, the government steals another 10% of the "after tax" portion for property taxes on my very modest so-called starter home (i.e. permanent because I cannot afford better). Then they demand another 9.25% for anything else I buy. Why should the state get a sales tax on a used car that's been sold five times? You can't even hand down your property without these schysters picking our pocket, and the pocket of your kids This has got to stop!

Why should my hard-earned money be redistributed to stupid social programs for people who refuse to get off their ***es and do real work or for illegals squatting here not paying any taxes, getting free college and grade school for their children? Why do we need, what is it, 25% of all jobs to be government ones? What a fat, bloated pig of a nation we've become! Since when did we become this country of sheep submitting to tyrants, much less voting those crooks back into office?

Taxing the productive in this country over and over and over again does not increase revenues to the Feds and the state, but will simply result in job loss , less charity and less spending because money will go to tax shelters. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Under the current tax proposals, the top individual income tax rate would go up 13% to 39.6%. Social Security Payroll tax would be raised between 16 - 32% for people making over 250,000$, which means that the total lifetime value of what people with this income get back from the social security system will driven below 0%; we pay more into the system than we will ever get out. In addition, capital gains would be raised by 30% to 20% total.

For these tax raises on that income group, there is absolutely nothing in return. Nothing other than mediocre schools, a growing part of the population learning to depend on government handouts (yes, the rich can pay) and a healthcare system that will be a far cry from what it is today.

Do you really think that people who are smart enough to have these sort of incomes will stick around and wait to get hit over the head, called greedy, told to pony up even more and then on top of it be asked to please finance some neighborhood project or donate to a local charity that is about to go under.

Think again.

Which of you tax complainers would be willing to cut our military spending at least half and get all of our troops off foreign soil?

Which of you tax complainers would be willing to institute tariffs on all goods made outside this country so that they cost the exact same as a widget made inside this country?

Which of you tax complainers would be willing to scrap needles junk like NASA?

Which of you tax complainers would decline unemployment should you be laid off, or not accept social security or medicare when you turn 65?

All you tax complainers are all bark and no bite. Nobody likes where all their tax money goes, but it goes to keep this country what it is. Don't like it, then do something to fix it.

Or how about ending the drug war and releasing all non-violent drug offenders?

Kill the Pentagon Web Link

Tax complainers? Hey what I pay is plenty, is 50% or more fair? No way Jose. And I already pay for all of the programs you mention, pay dearly.

I served as a combat troop getting shot at courtesy of the Gov. I don't need them in my pocket now so deep that it hurts.

And looking at the alternatives in this World, I am happy we have a strong military with no peers. And needless "junk" like NASA? Guess you don't think much of science and engineering. Maybe holistic gardens is more your tea.

So what you gonna cut? Medicare, Social Security, what?

50% is fair.

Well we all know you don't pay 50%. And it isn't right no matter what you say. You cut taxes and you will see the private sector (where the money comes from) start to pick up, hire people again. Tax revenue will grow as the economy grows. Heavy taxes stifles that growth - period.

Across the Board cut of governemnet 10% would be the best start. Won't happen though. Gov will be 10-15% bigger in three years.

You cannot tax yourself to health wealth and happiness. Been tried.

A ten percent cut wouldn't reduce your tax burden much.

Need something more radical.

So, whacha gonna cut?

First, nobody is paying 50% in income taxes. That figure is a guesstimate including all other taxes that are paid, almost all of which are related to consumption. In the case of gasoline, the gas tax is really a joke and quite obviously unable to reach its objective - maintenance of the country's road infrastructure. Otherwise we would not have seen the need to pump so much money into roads/bridges/etc. in the stimulus bill.

Second, since taking office the Obama administration has LOWERED income taxes levied against all of us squabbling here on Talkabout. His proposal is to restore the upper rate, paid by the top 5% of income earners in the country, to the level it was under the Clinton Administration. Perhaps my memories have faded... but I seem to recall an economy that was so much on steroids that the Fed actively raised interest rates to cool it off.

Next, I just don't buy the argument that lowering taxes is a magic bullet to the private sector. The private sector will always find a way to operate regardless of taxes - just has it always has in this country.

Finally, if you seriously want to see a reduction in Federal Governmetn spending then everyone has to be ready to deal with the "untouchable" 2/3 of the Federal Budget. I am so tired of watching Fox News (yes, why DO I watch them anymore?) jump up and down over "Pork Barrel" spending when it represents something like 0.75% of the total budget. Military spending is another good place to look for sure, at something like 17%, closer to 21% if you include the separate line item "global war on terror".

?, a resident of Half Moon Bay,asks...how much total wealth those same people hold in comparison to the rest of us?

So a teenage Bus Boy, should earn as much as a Steel worker,

A steel worker should earn as much as his supervisor, who also has 15 years more experience, and has acquires Business skills his worker has yet to learn.

The hardworking employee who gives that extra bit to promote his company and would never consider steeling from it, should receive the same wages and benefits as the wino who shows up late, doesn’t put in an effort and pilfers office products?

The farmer, who produces a bountiful crop to feed the community by working sun up to sun down, should receive the same as the farmer who lets his field go to weeds.

And someone who enters the country illegally, should be entitled on day one to the same benefits as an elderly woman who worked her whole life and always paid her taxes.

Everyone should earn the same and receive the same.

Wages and health benefits should have no relation to hard work, learned skills, or other risk factors.

Once we achieve that, we can put people to work where they are needed.

The stay at home mom can be made a brick layer (her children in government sponsored training camps), the poet a policeman, the child who dreams of becoming a doctor can be made an administrator.

When we are truly equal all will be good in the world.

Is that your plan?

Templar - what you were saying, tongue in cheek, at the end was actually tried - in the Soviet Union, and we all know how that worked out. We need Frank B and you (Templar) to take over this country and we would be fine. Both of you make lots of sense; myself, I am tired of fencing with some of these "others" and then getting hassles from Clay for telling them what they need to hear. Some of the names that adequately describe them would get me excluded from here forever.

Nobody is asserting what Templar is saying, but does a CEO really deserve 400 times the pay of his workers?

No, especially when that same CEO is running that company into the ground.

What happens when we increase taxes on corporations is that they take their profits and reinvest them in tho company, creating more jobs, paying their workers better and making their companies and in turn the nation stronger. Having such low corproate tax levels alow them to make record profits, screw their workers and hide the money in offshore accounts away from the IRS and then everybody, exept the rich 1%, get screwed.

Is that what you favor? Because that is what has been happening for the last 30 years.

Come on!

Who on this thread is even remotely advocating changing to a Soviet style system of collective ownership?

Either you guys have no clue how the Soviet Union worked and understand some of the proposals being floated for things like Health Care reform


(more likely) this is all regurgitated right wing rhetoric designed to whip up the conservative base with yet another baseless threat to mother, god and apple pie.

I must admit to the energy of that base, they seem to jump up and march at even the most remote internet rumor! Energizer bunnies all of them I guess!

So many people can't think about ANYTHING except in terms of Reps vs Dems. Its like children arguing about their favorite teams. That works out great for the Reps and Dems - keeps peoples minds off of what is really happening, which they would just as soon not have people thinking about.

The various estimates of how much of our income we pay in taxes don't take account of the fact that we also pay all corporate taxex - all business taxes for that matter. For example, when you plunk down the better part of a dollar for a copy of the HMB Review, you pay a share of ALL the taxes paid (more accurately,collected) by the Review.

Of course, also hidden in the cost of the product are other things like employee health insurance, contributions to retirement programs, etc. Should we rail against those as well?

At the end of the day the country is what it is because we pay our taxes. We get something for that money, its called the greatest country the earth has ever known. Seems like its worth the price to me.

Astro Turf - we will all agree that is has been the greatest country in history and we would like to keep it that way. To be taxed into socialism isn't the answer...the only way this could be seen as a Republican/Democrat thing is if we recognize which party is pushing us in that direction. Isn't it Dingy Harry, Queen Pelosi and their cohorts that are leading the charge on this one?

Was this a socialist country all through the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's when the high end of the income scale was paying 90% in income taxes?

I think not.

How was our economy during those times?

Freaking excellent.

There is such a thing as historcal precident an facts, and unfortunately for you tax whiners, they are not on your side.

If we can just stay away, as Rick Mave writes, from the Rep vs. Dem paradigm, then we can discuss this thing reasonably.

Hey I was sired in poverty, abject poverty. I am happy to be able to pay taxes. But there is a limit to this before you get into the punitive. When things are highly taxed you get less of that thing.

Employers are generally smaller. When taxes are punirtive then the costs go up for that business. The idea that they simply pass it on is true to a point. When the cost goes up high enough people do not buy in sufficent numbers. Results in lay offs or no new employment oppurtunities.

I much prefer a strong econonmy over a rich government given that choice between the two. If your paycheck is larger you will spend more. If its smaller....

You are fundamentally wrong. We had higer corproate and personal tax rates in this county when our economy has been at its best.

With higher tax rates come more investment in the company, to protect those profits from being taxed. This benefits the company, the worker and the country.

Show proof that higher taxes hurt employement and the economy, because everything I have seen shows that to be a myth.

A little reality never hurts: Web Link

...."Was this a socialist country all through the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's when the high end of the income scale was paying 90% in income taxes?...."

Ever heard of tax shelters? And I also just finished a biography of a wealthy person who stated pretty clearly they "deferred" income to avoid paying high taxes. Even if the tax rate is 90% there are legal ways tio avoid paying your earnings away. It is a myth that high taxes ala 90% is paid by those subjected to it.

I hope wealthy people ( I am not one) continue to buy yachts, planes, and other tangible goods. This creates jobs for those industries. If we take that money from them they will not buy those things. And the Gov will only redistribute these monies at a percentage on the dollar.

Maybe Bill Gates should have been given a salary. Then all those billions he has given to charitable works and aid would simply not exist. Wonderful thinking....

And there are no people trying to "shelter" their money now?

The main point is that when we had significantly higher tax rates than today we had:

1) More small business than now (ie mom and pop stores everywhere, before the WalMart era, with lots of diversity in what we could buy)

2) Lots of rich people - with yachts and private planes and all the stuff they have now.

You can try to rationalise away facts and what has proven to work for this country throughout our history, but it still makes you wrong, Frank.

Your anecdotal responses are not based in reality and have been proven false time and time again.

"Of course, also hidden in the cost of the product are other things like employee health insurance, contributions to retirement programs, etc. Should we rail against those as well?"

I wasn't railing against taxes, Astro Turf, tho I'm not above doing that. I was simply pointing out something that is generally not understood, as obvious as it is, and rarely talked about. We often hear that some very large percentage of taxes is paid by a very small percentage of people. That is true of income taxes - not as true of the overall tax bite. When poor folk go into Safeway to buy bread or toilet paper, they pay a share of the tax money sent on to The Collectors by Safeway just as the rich folk do. Corporate and business taxes are regressive taxes. It is a crummy system. I would much prefer to see the share of the overall tax bite represented by business taxes asessed directly to consumers - or at least broken out in the price of goods and services, like sales taxes, rather than being hidden the way it is. Maybe that would engender more railing by the stingees, and maybe that would do some good.

Do the math...let's say a guy makes $500K, no $1 Million in a year. Your tax plan is to take away $900,000 in Fed Taxes, leaving him $100K.

Now the State comes in and takes, let's say 10%. Now he owes $100,000 on the $100,000 he has left.

Brilliant tax plan. Should make people want to earn more and more, no? You may think that is both wise and fair and that is fine. We know what great affect you will have on adopting this wonderous miraculous plan.

Anyone else for a 90% taxation plan?

Nobody was promoting tax rates that high, just pointing out the simple truth that when we had rates that high, our economy was strong and grew on a solid foundation based in reality, versus the bubbles and crahses that have plagued us since.

I'd say a 39% top income tax rate is beyond fair.

Stop letting your stubborn ideology get in the way of simple common sense, Frank. Its not becoming of a man your age.

High taxes or low taxes do not show their immediate on the economy fact because the economic reaction is anticyclical. The notion, that the economy was doing well under high taxe rates at any point in time is a lie that is spread on many progressive blogs these days, but can be entirely disputed by actual historic facts.

- Across-the-board tax rate reductions in the 1920s reduced the top rate from 71 percent to 24 percent. The economy boomed, growing by 59 percent between 1921 and 1929.

- In 1930, Herbert Hoover raised tax rates from 25 percent to a maximum of 63 percent, and Franklin Roosevelt boosted them to 79 percent later in the decade. The 1930s, to put it mildly, are not remembered as one of the American economy's better decades.2

- Across-the-board tax rate reductions introduced by President John F. Kennedy reduced the top rate from 91 percent to 70 percent. These lower rates, along with substantially lower taxes on savings and investment, are associated with the longest economic expansion in American history.3

- The Johnson surtax, enacted in 1968 during the administration of President Lyndon Johnson, combined with the inflation-induced bracket creep of the 1970s (subjecting taxpayers to higher rates even though their real incomes had not changed), resulted in a decade of stagflation.

- Reagan's across-the-board tax cuts ushered in America's longest peacetime expansion, helping to create 20 million new jobs and pushing incomes and living standards to record highs.

- The tax rate increases imposed under George Bush and Bill Clinton, as outlined below, are associated with the slowest growing economy in 50 years and a decline of more than $2,000 in the average family's income.

The policies of the 20's caused the problems of the 30's. The policies of FDR helped turn the Depression around. Same as the policies of the last 30 years, with the last 8 being the most damaging, are what's causing the problems of today.

Well said Earl,

I will come from another perspective, one of principle. Now, mind you, I'm not a wealthy man as measured in assets or money, I am a self employed working man sick and tired of the government sticking its hand in my pocketbook because the government has out-of-control spending habits.

The out of control spending habits of government and their voracious appetite to tax is the context of the Tea Parties. Too simple for the media to understand.

The socialist sentiments of "wealth envy" and "wealth redistribution" have so infected our body politic, that any mention of these character defects of Marxian thought, will get you the label, Extremist. Disgusting.

The feminized doctrine of 'fairness' is the result of this envious thinking and is the driving force for these new outcrys of a more 'progressive' tax system.

So, for all you working men and women, get ready for more distribution of your wealth because an Internet Tax and a CO2 Tax (Cap & Trade) are on the agenda for next session of Congress.

One more bone of principled contention. Those who lack the courage to come to my house in person with the intention to take my hard earned money, seem to be the loudest proponents of sending the government to my house to take my money by force, deadly force at that. A nation of cowards and worshippers of those with the trappings of power we have become. Disgusting.

Yours in Liberty, JD - the Federalist

Well said JD, and thanks to Earl and others for posting the facts. There's a reason that marxist countries implode- it doesn't work!

Barack Maobama's Utopia:

"Some people say a man is made outta mud

A poor man's made outta muscle and blood

Muscle and blood and skin and bones

A mind that's a-weak and a back that's strong

You load sixteen tons, what do you get

Another day older and deeper in debt

Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go

I owe my soul to the (government) store..."

Wealth has been been redistributed upwards over the last 30 years, not the other way around.

That is the truth, everything else is conservative myth bought into by the blind followers of that religion without any regard to actual facts or history.


Cap and trade is a market, not a tax. It sets a hard limit on total emissions. Then a regulated exchange of tradable permits gives enterprise a choice: Invest in efficiency and better technology – or buy credits from more efficient players, underwriting their cleaner practices. Simple.

Might want to know what you are talking about before you spout off.

Funny how a working man such as me, complains about the high taxes I pay on my income, and I become a religious conservative drone.

This country ideals encourage a mix of ideas and views. At least it is supposed to.

When I was young poor and living in public housing I saw the liberal guilt programs that didn't work. They may not have realized it but these programs as implemented kept poverty in place. Big gov did very little but grow more dependency and crime.

It was especially detrimental to the black folks in my Ward that made up about 75% of the populace. Jail was the major employer.

I often wonder what I would do to change that system. And I know now I would do three things. Bring in the best school system with the highest standards. Place many kids in a supervised home environment. And offer major tax benefits for businesses to locate in the Ward. For each local hired you reduce your taxes. The wealthy areas can take care of themselves, bring QUALITY to the ghetto.

Raising everyone's taxes just places more money in the hands of those that don't have a clue. The best things in most everyone's life came at the hands of someone who cared about you. Not from someone who had a form to fill out or a handout.

In Chicago they handed out welfare and programs to those of us in the 9th Ward. We called it the 100's. They did it with the explicit understanding we were not to venture out of that rat hole into the finer areas. Typical liberal guilt, throw money at them and make them go away. I couldn't wait to get out of that trap. ONly now to see this same doctrinaire thinking in HMB. Tax the rich give to the poor.

Excuse me, Frank, but all those programs you call for, which sound great, cost money. Money come from taxes and the rates as they are now are fair.

We could definitely implement your programs without increasing your taxes by cutting in other areas, like the military, the war on drugs, prisons and other programs that don't work. But you would still need to pay your taxes, and it is the liberals who would fight to implement your programs, not the conservative party that would be fine to just let them rot.

Mr./Ms. Reality Check,

Is this "spout off" and "spout on" a zen-like exercise for 'green socialists'? Not interested.

So, this Cap & Trade scheme is not a tax, huh? Well then, I guess you have information that Dr. Richard Lindzen of MIT does not possess, nor Dr. Michael Coffman of Sovereignty International who asserts, "Depending upon what legislation is passed, it will actually cause every American family to spend at least two to five thousand dollars more a year.....to try to support this effort to curb carbon dioxide emissions."

Silly me, socialist schemes couched in lassiez faire lingo, are not a tax. I guess all those products that arrive at New Leaf by truck are not going to go up in price.......Silly me for thinking that all those "wealthy" CEO's and corporation will not pass on the cost of this "non-tax" to consumers.

Now, what scientific data are you basing your enthusiasm for this lower/middle class behavior modification scheme upon? None. This claim of man-made CO2 causing warming, was unlawfully proclaimed by the majority in a SCOTUS decision, Massachusetts v. EPA, with no scientific evidence upon which to rest.


Oh, one more irritant to air. If every country on the planet met their Kyoto obligations by 2100, and if this claim of man's emission's of CO2 being the driving force for climate change (it's not), we may see a savings of temperature rise of 1 degree Celsius.

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

"Off topic", but the mention of CO2 reminded me...

This morning a mosquito was buzzing me as I awakened. (This warm weather [global warming?] caused windows to be left open all night.)

I heard somewhere that mosquitos are attracted to our exhaled breath. Isn't this CO2?

If we bring down CO2 levels, will the mosquito population be affected? Perhaps so much that they will be put on the endangered species list?

Back to "on topic"...

"If we bring down CO2 levels, will the mosquito population be affected?"

No, they will still hone in on you and other CO2 emitters for a blood meal. You may even be more noticeable with a lower general level of CO2 in the atmosphere, as the amount you put out will be the same.


Knock it off, the feminized 'enviers of wealth' are becoming uncomfortable with all this talk of "out-of-control government spending" and here you go on with this talk of mosquitos.

Hmmmmmmmm, maybe their not uncomfortable at with all this spending/printing of money and nationalization of the private sector...........of course, they do not have the gumption to list the principles or philosophy that they base their practice of envy upon......

Yours in Liberty, JD - the "Honed" Federalist

Well, the silence here is deafening. What, the Tea Parties made y'all uncomfortable? Y'all like working through the month of June to feed the insatiable spending habits of the parasites in Congress and our state legislature?

Well, this might interest y'all then. The New York Times has a suggestion for y'all who are too cowardly to do so directly, e.g.- have others use the coercive force of government to take my hard earned money; y'all must drop the use of the term of Obama's tax scam, "Cap & Trade", and replace with it "Cap & Cash Back", or the more benign "Pollution Reduction Refund".

Why the name change if this scheme is not a tax aimed at controlling the behavior of the lower and middle classes? Well, I guess the Obama administration thinks that $2,000 - $5,000 dollars per family is not "real money", therefore, not a tax.........Go figure............looks like they already have..........the sheep are lining up for fleecing...............I mean by Golly, half of Obama'a administration don't pay taxes, why should we submit to higher taxes?

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

Keep the spam alive, JD.

Stop putting JD down for his spotty rants. As its local sycophant, he is obviously trying hard to achieve a style that will properly convey the principles and goals of the Hee Haw lobby.

The Nipper & Co., INC. (AstroTurf, ?, PutUporShut, Spamhead, Realitycheck, A Mom),

In y'all's anonymous wisdom, please explain to the participants of Talkabout why "Cap & Trade", or as the Obama braintrust would have it re-labeled "Cap & Cash Back", or the "Pollution Reduction Refund", is not not a tax scheme aimed at controlling the behavior of the lower and middle classes.

And in the interest of "fairness", please come to the defense of y'all's "envy" of those who make more money than yourselves and your cowardly "collective" outcry for government retribution for your personal shortcomings of character.

In Liberty, JD - the "Spot-on" Federalist

As I thought, the silence is telling.

A might tough to defend, even anonymously, unless of course one is hiding in a group, anonymously, behind their government agents of "change". Cowards all.

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

"As I thought, the silence is telling."

Try asking a question that makes sense and is not based entirely on false assumptions, and you might get somebody to respond (besides me making fun of your "aw shucks" contorted babble).

JD wrote: "or as the Obama braintrust would have it re-labeled" in reference to rebranding "Cap and Trade".

Well, there you go again! (get it?)

JD can't even read a newspaper article (Web Link - see this thread Web Link for where JD cites his source for this tidbit) and understand what is written, he has to inject his opinion to twist it to suit his purpose. How is the average sheeperson like me supposed to believe any of his writings in his self-professed field of expertise - Federalism - when he so blatantly distorts what is written in the NY Times?

JD the great mis-communicator (get it?)

"As I thought, the silence is telling."

So, JD, just where are all the posts from the Tea Party folks?

The silence is deafening because the Tea Parties were never a true sustainable grass roots movement - they were just another sad attempt at relevance by the Party of No, fueled by their media arm (Fox News). And, as we know, right now the Party of No is busy trying to find out what it stands for, and to find a new face, so it can re-brand itself (hey, just like Cap and Trade! Get it?). My guess is because of this they're too busy to think about taxes right now.

Astro Smurf opines: "the Tea Parties were never a true sustainable grass roots movement"

Uh, you ain't seen nuthin yet my friends. And don't go to Fox News for updates on the effort either.

We are here--have been all along, obediently paying our taxes that are being put to waste. More "tea parties" are going to happen "whether you like it or not" and whether or not we are on some government list somewhere.

Supposedly the Tea Party folks get their namwe from the Boston Tea Party. A righteous demonstration, though I suspect the modern Tea Party people would have a problem with the destruction of private property to make a point.

In any case, how do the Tea Party people feel about the fact taxes were much higher shortly after the Revolutionary War than they were before? Do they approve of the armed rebellion in several states that resulted largely from the higher assessments and dislike of what the federal government said could be used to pay the assessments? Is the modern Tea Party contemplating taking up arms against the government? Does it have the guts?

The Nipper & Co.,INC (AstroTurf, ?, PutUpOrShut, Spamhead, Realitycheck, A Mom) need some help with context like their buddy, the Millster, and are having fits of conscience because they know that their defense of the out-of-control spending habits of the Democrats in the White House, Congress, and our state legislature is indefensible,therefore they resort to the MoveOn.Org/ACORN debate tactic, name calling and re-direct or mis-direct the question before them.

AstroSmurf's frustration must be reaching a new pinnacle as shown with his newest debate tactic, become a Myna Bird or a Parrot in order to emulate his tormentor. Some would say that this behavior demonstrates a psychosis. Understanding context looks to be the major source of this frustration (admiration of JD's prowess?) when he looks to my presentation of the NY Times context of Obama'a tax scam, "Cap & Trade". Let us pray (watchword for Marxists) that he gets over this fixation with the game of Twister (GetIt?).

And for their (The Nipper & Co.,INC) enlightenment (possible watchword for Marxists) I shall point out that the context of "the silence is telling" vs. "the silence is deafening" is the equivalent of night vs. day. Not to pick on AstroSmurf (thanks for the coining, Tea Cozy) too much, alrighty then, I'll fess up, to really pick on 'im, I'll have to also point out that the "question" was not directed at the participants of the Tea Parties.

Let's ask The Nipper & Co.,INC the questions again, shall we?

In y'all's anonymous wisdom, please explain to the participants of Talkabout why "Cap & Trade", or as the Obama braintrust would have it re-labeled "Cap & Cash Back", or the "Pollution Reduction Refund", is not not a tax scheme aimed at controlling the behavior of the lower and middle classes.

And in the interest of "fairness", please come to the defense of y'all's "envy" of those who make more money than yourselves and your cowardly "collective" outcry for government retribution for your personal shortcomings of character.

So, there you have it Nipper, please, Sir, extrapolate on the "false assumptions" and "[non]-sens[ical] nature of these queries.

In Liberty, JD - the "Contextual" Federalist

JD, what is the word for someone who spends the amount of time you do ranting on the internet?

Dear "You Tell Me"

Nipper will have the word for you. Nipper certainly spends a chunk of time ranting on the internet.

Unless, of course, more than one person posts under the guise of Nipper.

However, I think the opposite is true--Nipper is also many other anonymous posters, using extra IDs so as not to appear to be one of those whatever the word you were asking about is.

Get it?

Tea Cozy,

No worries, what time I do spend on Talkabout is not serving them well, defending socialism/despotism is "a mite tough to defend, even anonymously, unless of course one is hiding in a group, anonymously, behind their government agents of "[hope] & change"."

"Cowards all.".........looky there Millster/AstroSmurf, a Twister (Get It?) of my own.

Yours in Liberty, JD - the Federalist

No frustration here!

I spent a wonderful day yesterday enjoying the natural beauty of our area by taking advantage of hiking (for free) in the open spaces thoughtfully preserved for us by local environment organizations and our socialist government. On some bluffs over Devil's Slide I even saw some gray whales, possibly saved from extinction by federal regulations, migrating back north for the summer. At the top of Montara Mountain I marveled at how far I could see because the air was so clear, mostly because of tough auto emission regulations put in place by our social engineering state and federal governments.

In any case, isn't this thread about Tea Parties? Two posters (with one of them JD so really 1 poster) have yet to convince me that the Tea Parties are a sign of a sustainable grass roots movement, as opposed to a publicity gimmick by the Party of No (the re-branded Republican party though a better term right now may be The Lost Party). If JD wishes to discuss "Cap and Trade" why doesn't he go back to the sophomore thread where there is already plenty of context? Why rehash the same discussion here? Why not stay on topic?

The Republican Party cheered on Bush & Cheney as they led the nation into a senseless war in Iraq that has that has recklessly cost the nation to date 667 billion dollars and still growing. Now when our economy is ruined by their foolish foreign and DOMESTIC policies the same cheer leaders balk at saving the banks and manufacturing base of our nation.

The Republican far right believes they can sell their foolish policies with shallow slogans and comparisons hiding deeper problems that they have created.

Their solution to all problems is to lower taxes. When in power from Reagan to Bush Jr. they have expanded government to pay off their supporters with tax subsidies or tax brakes making up the difference with borrowed dollars from abroad.

This blogging taxpayer revolt advertising campaign is just more of the bad advice that got us here.

Glad to see that your enjoying your anonymous courage at the expense of your Liberty in your 'Pursuit of Despotism' for others, my Liberty is not to be had so cheaply. Patrick Henry summed it up nicely for me.

Ahh, but enough of our back & forth sallies, let's get to your argument of approval for the enactment of Obama's tax scam aimed at the lower/middle classes, "Cap & Trade", shall we?

Once again, the Tea Parties are a grassroots movement that is showing the government, whether it be state, local, or federal, that we have had enough of their criminal overspending and debt creating habits, who then proceed to raise taxes versus mending their malfeasant behavior. So, yeah, this topic (Tea Parties) is the perfect place for your beloved behavior regulating tax scheme, "Cap & Trade".

Why is Obama so insistent with "fast-tracking" this legislation? Because he knows that the ignorance on this issue is at an all-time high as per Rasmussen:

24% believe it is about the environment

17% believe it is about health care

29% believe it is about Wall Street

30% have no idea what it is

And these dummies probably vote. Little do they know that their taxes are going up $2,000 - $5,000 dollars a year for a bogus government claim that man-made CO2 emissions are causing "Global Warming", oops, I guess the new name is "Our Deteriorating Atmosphere". Can't use "climate change" as that is too close for comfort to the naturally occuring cycles called Ice Ages and the Warming Periods between.

But hey, we have got to pay back the unions, pay for all the new wonderful government programs, and "reverse the failed policies of the last 8 years" with $1.8 Trillion dollar deficit spending. Doubling down on Bush's mistakes seems like good policy to me, NOT.

One other item to ponder in your anonymous socialist dreamland, why is Obama now dictating to the sovereign state of California on how to balance our budget? This union thug is threatening to withhold $6.8 billion in aid unless California restores the wage cuts to the unionized health care workers. Yessirree, Obama's "new America" has no place for the 9th & 10th Amendments in our Bill of Rights.

And enough already with the attempts of crediting the Repub Party for the grassroots Tea Parties, they cropped up in spite of the Republican Party. Yeah, that's right, the disgust of those who set the table for the Marxist before us, Obama, is growing.

Tomorrow we'll look into the real culprit of California's financial woes, CALPERS.

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist


Please inform us on the involvement of the following in causing world strife: capybara sex.

You know, chaos theory as applied to large rodents and all that jazz.


Come on now, would your grandmother approve of such prose at the dinner table? My 4'-6" grandmother would beat you within an inch of your life for less than that.

Come on now, give this one a shot, no one else has:

"In y'all's anonymous wisdom, please explain to the participants of Talkabout why "Cap & Trade", or as the Obama braintrust would have it re-labeled "Cap & Cash Back", or the "Pollution Reduction Refund", is not not a tax scheme aimed at controlling the behavior of the lower and middle classes."

If that is too risky, maybe you, could try 'splaining to our fellow Talkabouts:

Why we need to "sacrifice" (another Obama mantra) $2,000 - $5,000 dollars a year for a neglible reduction of a molecule that SCOTUS unlawfully declared a "pollutant" with no basis in fact.

In Liberty, JD - the "Boston" Federalist

There you have it, a 9 page Memo from the White House submitted to the appropriate committee of Congress that concurs with all the above posts by yours truly, me.

Lisa Jackson after some bluster and stutter admitted that the EPA is relying upon that unlawful decision of SCOTUS, Massachusetts v. EPA, for its declaration that CO2 is a "pollutant"...........As per Chief Justice Robert's dissent, "[the majority's conclusion is based on] pure conjecture".

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

The tangles troubling you are created in your cherry-picking imagination, JD, so you'll have to straighten them out yourself. And try to clean out the plaques, too. If there actually are real issues remaining after that, maybe you'll be able to word them meaningfully and ask questions based on the real world in a rational manner. In the meantime, I won't hold my breath waiting.

If the Nipper has trouble with comprehension of the written word, he can view the proceedings of the:

Subcommittee of Public Environment & Public Awareness

On C-Span.

Then he can watch Lisa Jackson of the EPA pull a Pelosi (I never saw.....), hem & haw and bluster & stutter as she is questioned about the 9 page Obama memo explaining that "Cap & Trade" will have "serious economic consequences for all business owners and [taxpayers]".

Maybe after this exercise of visual/audio comprehension the Nipper could give this cleaned up question another shot:

"Why do we taxpayers need to "sacrifice" (another Obama mantra) $2,000 - $5,000 dollars a year for a neglible reduction of a molecule that SCOTUS, with no basis in fact, unlawfully declared a "pollutant"?

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

The Post office just came out with a new self-canceling stamp. No new technology required. They simply put JD's picture on it (after reading a few of his confused musings).

"Cap & Trade".......a 1000 page bill in committee of Congress.......that the chairman, Waxman..........has not read..........and when questioned thus............."I will rely on the [political manifestations] of the IPCC...........an international body of leeches with no legal jurisdiction..............the Nipper must be proud to be a fellow traveler (Get It?) of Waxman.

In Liberty, JD - the "[Nipper] canceling" Federalist

Waxed by Waxman. Things in D.C. aren't going too well for you these days, are they, JD?

I can only imagine how you flat earthers would spontaneously combust if we had a government that attacked all problems humanity is having with its material environment using the best knowledge available.

The cap and trade stuff is actually a partial gift to industry. More realistic measures free from the influence of the money crowd would be far more direct and effective.


Get on that Google button and show the Talkabouters which industry giant will have the monopoly for the largesse bestowed upon them by the scum in Congress.

Then, 'splain to the Talkabouters why they are going experience a $2,000 - $5,000 dollar a year increase of their taxes.

Don't like the results of your Googlin'?

General Electric

Just like his hero FDR, Obama is creating a monopoly despite his rhetoric for the love of the "working man".

In Liberty, JD - the "Round Earth" Federalist

You want me to Google for the fabricated right-wing babble you so admire, including the $2-5,000 per year figure?

That kind of political football has nothing to do with the fundamentals of dealing with our material world. Don't expect you to see this, JD, given your persistent display of ignorance on such matters and your fractured resort to idiosyncratic sources that you then further twist. Don't take such statements of mine too hard; I actually get a kick out of the Hee Haw crowd and the cute homilies that they believe contain some sort of homespun wisdom.


Yeah, do what you do best, use your Google button to obfuscate your Malthusian pipe dreams of "fundamental[ly] dealing with the material world"...........tell us of your Ehrlician plans for population control to "fundamental[ly] deal with the material world"...........What no defense of your "paint the roofs white" hero, Dr. Chu?...........Please show us the "ignorance" of Dr. Lindzen's work, can't do it, can you?.........Please share with us the "right-wing babble" in the 9 page White House (read, Obama) that Lisa Jackson of the EPA could not defend before Congress.........Or will it be more school-girl sophistry?

In Liberty, JD - the "Skeptical Environmentalist" of a Federalist

JD - we should hesitate to employ the shortened form "Nip" - our Japanese friends may find it offensive. Certainly they wouldn't want anybody to think HE was Nipponese. They are a much too clear-thinking, practical and logical people.


I stand corrected, though my context was never, nor will ever be one of a racist nature. Must keep ourselves above the fray of that the Democrats have created. From hereon, the Nipper or Nipster.

Check out page 826 of this 1000 page tax scam, "Cap & Trade", the creation of a new social safety net for those who will lose their jobs or claim difficulty with the new taxes imposed on all businesses because of government mandates for "green jobs".

Price tag: $33,000,000 billion dollars (as per the Obama estimate, and you know what that means, quadruple the cost........kinda like the cost of the Montara tunnel).

Yours in Liberty, JD - the Federalist


I stand corrected, though my context was never, nor will ever be one of a racist nature. Must keep ourselves above the fray of that the Democrats have created. From hereon, the Nipper or Nipster.

Check out page 826 of this 1000 page tax scam, "Cap & Trade", the creation of a new social safety net for those who will lose their jobs or claim difficulty with the new taxes imposed on all businesses because of government mandates for "green jobs".

Price tag: $33,000,000 billion dollars (as per the Obama estimate, and you know what that means, quadruple the cost........kinda like the cost of the Montara tunnel).

Yours in Liberty, JD - the Federalist

JD stands corrected twice for an unintended slip but goes merrily along making unsubstantiated assumptions and major factual errors.

Hey Nipster,

Google the "Cap & Trade" bill before Congress and show our fellow Talkabouts your "unsubstantiated assumptions and major factual errors". Or does your Google button not like the cost to American taxpayers for this coercive government behavior modification scheme?

In Liberty, JD - the "Factual" Federalist


If your caretakers were kind, they would stop you from making idiotic references to cap and trade. Instead, they make sport of you by letting you jump in the deep end without water wings.


What, no big words and lofty rhetoric to defend the indefensible, "Cap & Trade"?

Your creativity for the tactic of school-girl-hide-behind-the-principal-name-calling may be admirable in the circles you infest, not passing muster here.

In Liberty, JD - the "Sporterized" Federalist

Another whiff from JD. It's almost too easy. Only in HMB would he be kept on the team.

Nipper: You have put up the good fight but I think it is time to raise the white flag....you are finally running out of wind. JD got it right, "big words and lofty rhetoric to defend the indefensible"....very good and right on.

Sorry, old pal but I must admit, you have been supremely entertaining. Time to go to the bull pen.


Our resident Marxist, the Nipper, will never put his argument in plain view for his support of "Cap & Trade". In it's stead, he will denigrate the messenger, trash these United States, and now, malign all who grew up in HMB. Sophistry is the art of the socialist, which he has perfected.

We'll ask him again:

"Is the U.S. Temperature Record Reliable?" - a study by Anthony Watts

This will be experiment as to how many "Flat-earther" and "denier" allegations are thrown Mr. Watts way.

Yours in Liberty, JD - the "Bullish on America" Federalist

JD - I must admit, you call a spade a spade (are we still permitted to say that or will the PC/thought police come and get us?). I almost feel sorry for the Nipper; facing your postings he fades like Superman when exposed to Kryptonite. He is shrinking and shrinking and soon....nothing! No no longer spews forth his lengthy bombastic posts full of the Communist propaganda. Poor guy! We never publicly unmasked him so he will be, as it says on the tombstone of the spinster, "gone but not gotten". Alas and alack.

Hey wemoan; Mr. Nipper's stuff sounds somewhat like Mussolini's tirades. Ya know Mussolini was a socialist before he got into Italian Fascism. I can see Mr. Nipper now, on display like a side of beef in an old gas station. The times, they is a'changin'. Poor guy.


I wouldn't count 'im out yet, men and women like 'im have years of university trainin' learnin' the tactical characteristics of the chameleon.

These chameleons in the camps of the progressive, anarchist, and the environmentalist, are the same "sappers and miners" of Thomas Jefferson's era. We'll root 'em out, they don't do well in sunshine.

Yours In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

Yes, JD, agreed; the disease is hard to eradicate but we have enough straight jackets for all of them. Credere, Combattire, Vencere

There you go again Wemoan usin' dem big words........well said.......Molon Labe!

Yours In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

you dim wits are still at this?

Mr./Ms. Loser,

Is the name calling a legitimate tactic in your university debate class? Or is this an ACORN tactic? Alrighty then, try this one:

"Is the U.S. Temperature Record Reliable?" - Anthony Watts

Or better yet, try your best with this one:

Please explain to the participants of Talkabout why "Cap & Trade" is not not a tax scheme aimed at controlling the behavior of the lower and middle classes."

In Liberty, the "Witty" Federalist

Are you kids having fun over there in the right-wing, flat-earth, science-denying corner of the playground?

Nipper, please! We WOULD like to see some substance from you; my thing here is often not for substance, it is to mess with you and I must admit that I do enjoy it. From a man of your calibre (after all, a Ph.D. from South Hampton Institute of Technology) I would expect more than simple name calling. I would like you to try to prove JD wrong...and prove it. I'll bet you can't do it.

Scorecard for the usage of the slurs 'Flat-earth' and 'denier':

The Nipper: 2 counts (1 each)

From your neighborhood "inconvenient science" web counter @ Talkabout.

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

Nipper: We simply won't accept pseudo-science invoked by our country's resident enemies in the interest of their particular devious and suicidal political agenda.

Wemoan: You mean that you don't want to follow the "green" trail blazed by (I bow my head in reverence) Fat Albert, the inventor of the Internet and the spearhead of the "green" movement, supported by his legions of loyal and believing morlocks and ghouls? Welcome to the new counter revolution, the new awakening, the new America we will create when this leftist, enviro-nazi movement is finally brought to its ghastly and much deserved inglorious end. You and JD need to keep up your fight; you're doing a great job and Mr. Nipper knows it.

Good afternoon foes & fans alike,

For those of you who think the decision to enact "Cap & Trade" has not been made, think again. For those of you who think the Democrats do not care what the cost will be for enactment, you are right. For those of you whose love of this over-reaching executive (Obama) has caused you to overlook why he is insistant to "fast track" "Cap & Trade", wake up or at least have the courage to defend this tax scam.

What is "Cap & Trade"? "Cap & Trade" is nothing more than an attempt to control the behavior of the lower/middle class. It is a tax scam under the guise of a "free market solution" as I will show below.

The computer models of this Cap & Trade scheme that will be used to establish allowable emission standards are already in place at the EPA and the base factors have already been supplied by those bastions of "scientific integrity", the IPCC, NAS, and DOE.

The EPA will then use the determinations from these models for your particular industry/activity's allowable emissions. If you go over your allowable output, you are fined (coercive tax).....ooops, you purchase a Carbon Credit Offset (another fancy sounding title for taxation).

It gets worse. The EPA will calculate for you a per unit Emission Number, you will then pass this on to any sub assembler or industry using your output as an input, including electricity from fossil fuels. Then they will calculate their per unit number (your subcontractor or client) and add in yours, and so on and on, until the packager adds the EPA Total Emissions Regulated to the labeling showing the total emissions generated for the GHG's in question for the product.

Products without this EPA label will be subject to tariffs and extra taxes.

Why do the politicians insist on this tax scheme being enacted immediately? Because once y'all figure out how much this tax will cost you, with no benefit for the environment mind you (for the Nippers' benefit, negligible), it will die in committee as it should.

Now don't forget that the spouters of "flat-earth" declared that the "science was settled" by the politicians who wrote IPCC's "Summary for Policymakers" way back in 2001.

Yesirrrreeee, it's not about the evironment folks, it's about the control that Malthus could only dream about.

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

Can someone place a "Cap & Trade" tax on JD emissions? It is a wasted opportunity not to tax his spouting poisonous gases into the atmosphere free of charge...

Foes & fans alike,

I believe I can safely say, Ms. Arby-Q is the Nipper's wife, the "other half" of his sophistry.

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

Foes & fans alike,

I believe I can safely say, Ms. Arby-Q is the Nipper's wife, the "other half" of his sophistry.

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

I think JD what you meant to emit was:

"Foes & fans alike,

I believe I can safely say, Ms. Arby-Q is the Nipper's wife, the "other half" of his sophistry.

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist"

No, Lady D, here is what the JD was trying to get across to the other goggle-eyed science deniers:

"Foes & fans alike,

I believe I can safely say, Ms. Arby-Q is the Nipper's wife, the 'other half' of his sophistry.

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist"

I am so ashamed - making fun of less fortunates.

Still, fun is fun:-)

There you have it folks, joined at the hip in their sophistry and yet no argument to defend the indefensible, "Cap & Trade"........Are we having fun yet? (Get It?)

In Liberty, JD - the "Double-Tap" Federalist


Please forgive me. It is just so much more fun to josh with crazies than to waste one's time hopelessly trying to reason with them.

Do you even know the name of the current cap and trade bill, let alone what its contents are? Boring stuff, but I believe you are down to it.


What did y'all change the name like you did Global Cooling, or was that Global Warming, no maybe it's Climate Change.

How 'bout for once, the know-all Nipper, enlighten as to what the Democrats are attempting to obfuscate. Check Waxman's committee, or visit Obama's web-page, or do what you do best, Google it.

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

Very sad, JD, that you try to come off as a critic of something but cannot even call it by name. How does that foot you are always chewing on taste?

Nipper: The foot probably won't taste so good when he pulls it out of your posterior.


Heh, heh......he won't know the difference.

Maybe when the American people see page 826 of the 1000 page "Cap & Trade" bill before Congress, they'll wake up. That page alone has a price tag of $33,000,000 billion dollars.

At the risk of repeating myself:

"Yesirrrreeee, it's not about the evironment folks, it's about the control that Malthus could only dream about."

Yours in Liberty, JD - the Federalist

Notice to all clear thinking, liberty loving Americans (no Nipper or Madame): There is another Tea Party scheduled for July 4; could you think of a more appropriate day? Keep tuned for more information.

And they are going to keep saying that FOX is behind it.

Dream on!

We are not a bunch of sheep. We are Americans. We are disgruntled taxpayers.

Let's see, how did the latest election go?

"Notice to all clear thinking, liberty loving Americans (no Nipper or Madame): There is another Tea Party scheduled for July 4; could you think of a more appropriate day? Keep tuned for more information."

Right on! Good luck with killing off the people you did not bore to death with the last one.

As Mrs. Obama is touring the country lecturing us to "volunteer", we must ask ourselves if the "volunteering" will be the same "coerced humanitarianism" that high school teenagers are required to complete in order to receive their diploma. You know, that "voluntary" requirement of "community service hours".

As President Obama is touring the country lecturing us that national government run health care is the only thing to save us from the brink of disaster, we must ask ourselves why is he not campaigning for his penalizing tax scheme "Cap & Trade". You know, that one that Nancy Pelosi is ramming through Congress for a vote this Friday. 1200 pages of taxation that not only has a cap on carbon dioxide emissions, a floor for carbon dioxide emissions.

And in case you missed the coverage of this on your evening news or major newspapers, the ethanol producers got an exception for their emissions. Yeah right, the most "open and ethical" of Congress' and White House Administrations in "history".

Some math:

George Bush = 450 billion dollar deficit (after 8 years) & 700 billion dollar "stimulus" (deficit spending and stimulus that did not work)

Barack Obama = 1.8 trillion dollar deficit (after 6 months) & 1 trillion dollar "stimulus" (in Obama's own words with Dianne Sawyer, "Not Yet", and like in Iran, "we'll have to see how it's played out" - oh, I guess snipers shooting teenage girls hasn't quite got to the "played out" part yet) & 1.6 trillion dollar health care destroying plan & 3 trillion dollar economy destroying carbon dioxide tax scheme - "Cap & Trade" (deficit spending & stimulus & higher taxes that will not work)

Keynes, a tool for the power-seekers and their lackeys.

And these sycophants of Obama wonder why Tea Parties are cropping up.............Over-reachers, well, they always over-reach........See y'all on the Fourth...

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

JD: I can't believe it; you posted this 16 hours ago and the Nipper hasn't, as of yet, conjured some verbose diatribe that attempts to refute what you say but really says nothing. The Nipper's philosophy in his writing is that "more is better". Many words, little content. Maybe lots of horsepower but no traction.



Not so fast, I think he's switching monikers, which won't work for long, you can take the anonymity out of the anonymous, but you can't take the sophistry out of the sophist.......can't hide context....

Yours in Liberty, JD - the Federalist

Wrong, as usual.

Spammer or is it Sir Spam:

Which moniker are you using today?

What, a little sensitive to being called a Nipper?

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

I remember eating a lot of spam sandwiches in the old days. Was that you?

NP & Lady D, you both seem to disagree with the theme of this topic. Do you pay any taxes? Do you wish to pay more?

You have heard of Redistribution of Wealth? I would propose Redistribution of Work.

Maybe the local high school kids can get community service credit by helping JD and wemoan refurbish their obomba shelters left over from the 1950's?

Greetings Tea Party Patriots:

Let me list the errant economic ways of the Democrats who pledged to have the most "open and ethical" of Congresses (Pelosi & Reid) and the most "transparent" of White House administrations (Obama) in order to clear the air of any misconceptions. And then we have the malfeascant miscreants in our State house.

The lads and lassies in Sacramento are now issuing IOU's and are contemplating a 32 cent per gallon gasoline tax (temporary, yeah right) in their attempt to avoid responsibility for the $18 billion - $42 billion dollar debt (nobody knows, real accountablility there, huh?) that they have created in their power-mad guarantees for incumbancy.

President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid have behaved much worse. The Keynesians have their wish with Obama. They are going to show the world that deficit spending works because, well, Obama's charisma wills it, and that's that. Natural laws and the laws of economics will be magically transformed by words alone. A simple case of hubris taken to the extreme.

In six months:

Obama & Co. has amassed some 2.2 Trillion Dollars in Deficit Spending while ignoring the monetary policy of the Fed (perhaps not, a valueless dollar will serve them well for their {Obama & Emmanuel} "not letting a crisis go to waste."). China, Europe and third world nations are looking elsewhere for security other our dollar (I guess y'all forget what happened under Hoover/Roosevelt).

Obama is now saying that another "1 Trillion dollar Stimulus Package" will be needed before years end. He wants $5.00 a gallon gasoline. He is going after the coal industry with new EPA regulations, and we're not even talkin' "Cap & Trade". He will not allow us to develop nuclear energy yet he is about to sign an agreement with Saudi Arabia to share our nuclear technology.

Its gets even better under Obama's "fast-tracking" micromanagement of all these media created crises. We'll have to save his "nationalization" programs of the private sector for another day, of which he loudly proclaims "is not socialism".

June's unemployment numbers beat out May's unemployment figures by 120,000 or so. That's right: 467,000 unemployed. Now here's the trick to these government figures, they do reflect the reality of the unemployment problem because sometime in our past, we followed the Soviet Union's lead for government reporting.

You know, leave a few categories out of the sum in order to make it all seem better, namely: the marginally attached & part-timers. If you include those categories like we used to during the Hoover/Roosevelt days, you will have a realistic look at how bad it is becoming - somewheres between 15.9% and 16.4%. And Obama's solution? More bailout money for mortgage defaulters and deficit stimulus spending.

And to think that the sovereignty and wealth destroyers of "Cap & Trade" and "Health Care for All" will solve our problems..........Think again

But, as the major media outlets inform us, there is a "silver-lining" to rising unemployment and a GDP dropping below a 2% growth-rate; "consumers (nice portrayal that one seeing as we have been reduced to slaves of the state) have learned a new 'frugality', are saving more, and when they look to their 401k's, things are looking up."

I'm not sure 'bout y'all, but I didn't "volunteer" for this coercive "shared sacrifice" for a "New 'Not a Socialist' America"................See y'all tomorrow at:

Central Park in San Mateo

Yours in Liberty, JD - the Federalist

What's your problem, my business has never been better, and things are looking UP ! !

Happy Fourth of July,

You may want to take a minute and count your blessings. Who should we thank for all that we have?

It's the soldier, not the reporter who has given us

Freedom of the Press.

It's the soldier, not the poet, who has given us

Freedom of Speech.

It's the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the

Freedom to Demonstrate.

It's the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the

Right to a Fair Trial.

It's the soldier who salutes the flag, serves under the flag and

whose coffin is draped by the flag,

Who gives the protestor the right to burn the flag.

Dear Vet:

God Bless you, your family, and your service to this fine lady called America.

Thank you.

Yours in Liberty, JD - the Federalist

Oppressed Taxpayer,

Your numbers are a bit off-- it's not 750 Billion, it is 2.31 Trillion to date. Not to worry, I don't have any kids and Costa Rica is looking pretty good right now.

OK, I am breathless, here is what just happened. I was trying to find current and authoritative financial figures from our transparent government on the recovery ( to update my most recent numbers of 2.31 Trillion), and I went to recovery.gov and found nothing, and then to Office of thrift supervision and found nothing, so then I thought The Treasury surely must have current data, so I went to their recommended website of Web Link and the page would not even load up..

But hey, it is the 4th of July.

Hope & Change, you wanted it, you got it.

try putting a www in your link, no problems loading for me.


OK, I have tried for 8 min, with Web Link and I still got nothing, even got a timed out response.

What is that all about? Does Obama have filters like China is trying to do? Do I sound paranoid to you?

Don't know what to say... while its not the fastest website I've ever seen it does load for me, even with the link you posted in your last message.

Both links work today for me too, and very quick too. I am still looking for details on financial numbers.


Try the office of the new Wage Czar, perhaps he can shed some "transparency" on your query.

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist


Here is what I found from Pelosi

February 11, 2009 VOTE BEFORE READING...

Conference Report on American Recovery and Reinvestment Act

Preliminary Overview

Just over three weeks since the Inauguration of President Obama, Congress will consider the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, to save and create jobs, get our economy moving again, and transform it for long-term growth and stability. The landmark legislation is the first dramatic new investment in the future since the creation of the interstate highway system a half century ago.

A staggering 3.6 million American jobs have been lost since this recession began in December 2007 – the culmination of the failed economic approach of the Bush Administration – one that also doubled our national debt in eight short years. We need a New Direction.

The conference report on American Recovery and Reinvestment Act currently being drafted will:

• Create and save 3.5 million jobs, rebuilding America, making us more globally competitive and energy independent, and transforming our economy.

• Give 95 percent of American workers an immediate tax cut.

• Invest in roads, bridges, mass transit, energy efficient buildings, flood control, clean water projects, and other infrastructure projects.

• Restore science and innovation as the keys to new American-made technology, preventing and treating disease, and tackling urgent national challenges like climate change and dependence on foreign oil.

• Invest quickly into the economy.

Unprecedented accountability and transparency measures are built in to help ensure tax dollars are spent wisely and help restore confidence — another critical component of this recovery.

The legislation being drafted contains targeted efforts in:

• Clean, Efficient, American Energy

• Transforming our Economy with Science and Technology

• Lowering Health Care Costs and Ensuring Broader Coverage

• Investing in Education for the 21st Century

• Modernizing Roads, Bridges, Transit and Waterways

• Tax Cuts for Middle-Class Families and American Businesses

• Helping Workers Hurt by the Recession

• Providing Strong Accountability Measures.

Read the latest from Treasury,

Web Link

spend, spend, spend.....


Haven't we tried this before on a smaller scale during the Hoover/Roosevelt depression? Did it work?..........Oh, I remember what them Keynesians said now that I think about it, we didn't do enough deficit spending..........Ya think 2.3 Trillion dollars will do the trick?...........Naw, Pelosi & Obama want another Trillion dollars of stimulus...........What say you?

In Liberty, JD - the Federalist

Lead is cheaper than Tea...

Krugman was right, the stimulus needed to be bigger than it was.

That is JUST what I need----------

Perpetual Stimulus, leave the bill with your kids.

"Perpetual Stimulus, leave the bill with your kids."

It's way better to strengthen our economy (for select sectors, anyway) by sending the kids off to murder people by the tens of thousands in other countries in order to maintain access to their natural resources.


There you go again, like terrorists are not "sending the kids off to murder people by the tens of thousands"

Read some news, think before typing, and get a life.

Transparency, that is the issue for me. I voted for Obama for Change and Transparency.

Now, Today-- I keep looking for transparency at a host of new websites. Where is the content. Where can I find the Health Care details. What will the Senate be voting on? The townhalls did not provide transparency. Where can I see the language of the Current healthcare bill?

I found a video that explains how government works in very simple terms. Take a 3 min break, and enjoy. Web Link


That was some fine video. Thank you. Is it OK if I pass it around to my friends?

Even a Progressive knows that you cannot create jobs by raising taxes. We have a long way to go to get out of this recession, no thanks to Obama, Pelosi, and Reid.

I think more government is the answer to our problems, and I do not agree with the video.

I got my calk. I am calk ready. Where do I get my $12,000?

I was watching tv this sunday morning with a hangover from a big Christmas party, and happened to hear a pundit, might have been george will?, describe a jobs program he witnessed in the 60's in China. It was a major dam program and all the workers were using shovels, and when he inquired of the Official why they were not using machinery and big trucks to remove the dirt, The Official said, "We are creating more jobs this way", and the pundit said "Why not use spoons?"

Now, that reminded me of the Shovel Ready program in the USA.

spend, spend spend, spend, spend

All my friends luv Boxer and Obama, purty soon my friends swill be in the upper class as beneficciarries of all the hand out porgrams. cash for clunkers, cash for calkers, cash for cash.

Obama rules.

Obama is doing a fine job. We need to have more taxes, more government, more healthcare, and even more shovel ready programs.

The tea bag people are wrong. They want less taxes, less government, less healthcare, and less welfare programs for the people.

Eshoo, Feinstein, Dodd, and Franks, Reid, Boxer and Obama are doing a Miraculous Job.

"Eshoo, Feinstein, Dodd, and Franks, Reid, Boxer and Obama are doing a Miraculous Job."

They sure are. It's a miracle they're able to dumb down America so much that voters keep sending them back into office.

The crowd of Eshoo, Feinstein, Boxer and Obama are going DOWN.

Arrogant unfounded Assertions that create Humungous Debt Assail our Democracy. Taxed Enuf Already.

I am very proud to have this opportunity to serve. I am humbled to stand before you today, and I will go to DC tomorrow to say my howdys. I may drive my truck. I am a problem solver.

Somedays it does not turn out the way you wanted. Obama nation just got this recent assessment of their disaster in the Bluest state. Web Link

I am sensing a rising tide of anger directed at the proponents of hope and change. What change have we seen in the past 14 months? What hope is there for JOBS? What a disaster on Universal Health!

Houston, we have a problem!

"There you go again, like terrorists are not 'sending the kids off to murder people by the tens of thousands.'"

Oh really? And where is that happening? Terrorists are not excused for their crimes, but neither are you for the truth-skewing crime of innumeracy.

How come I get elected to the Senate from our Bluest state, and all of a Sudden --- all the talk about Universal Health Care, and Cap N' Trade, and more TAXES just dries up?

Enough about taxes, any economist knows that all we have to do is have our very own Government Spend, Spend, Spend, and we will see Blue Skies, Happy Days, Sunny Days, and Fresh Air for the Rest of Our Days on Earth.

Of course our Government will tax us for the money to Spend, Spend, Spend, Spend, Spend...

This congress is the worst in my life, and I am 63 years old, and have seen many congresses. Enough is enough, get rid of these worthless and arrogant representatives. It seems everything they want to do is wrong-- foreign, from Honduras to Venezuela, to Russia to Turkey. and domestic-- from bailouts to Lehman Brothers, to healthcare.

I am weary of this Chicago style government.

I will not ever vote democratic in my life.

another round of democratic ethics failures Web Link

I drained the swamp, and am unhappy with what I found in the mud.

Reconciliation and Redistribution and Re-Lapse.

Re-Health Care will Suck us all into the MUck.

Why all the carping and caviling.

We won.

We will take care of everyone that we choose to take care of.

Pay your taxes and shut up.


You have less than two weeks to send in your taxes to the IRS and the FTB. If you forget you will be penalized and have to pay interest on the balance. Some days I wish I was Tim Geithner, who paid no interest or penalties on the $34,000 of taxes he had forgotten to pay. If I was the head of the IRS life would be a bowl of chocolates.

Let me repeat the comments from OUTRAGED--from March 2010---

"This congress is the worst in my life, and I am 63 years old, and have seen many congresses. Enough is enough, get rid of these worthless and arrogant representatives. It seems everything they want to do is wrong-- foreign, from Honduras to Venezuela, to Russia to Turkey. and domestic-- from bailouts to Lehman Brothers, to healthcare.

I am weary of this Chicago style government.

I will not ever vote democratic in my life."

Now here we are 15 months later, and our problems keep growing and are becoming more unmanageable. Maybe Chi-town native just create problems, it is increasingly clear Chicagoans do not solve problems.

Does anyone reading this blog want more taxes.

I would like to know who, and why?

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