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ECO-TERRORISM IS ALIVE ON THE COAST!!

There's no question that there are plenty of No Growth people living here and that's their right. They are also free to protest and complain and appeal and whatever they want within the boundaries of the law.

But then there are some who take things to a whole new level where they are breaking the law.

A few months ago, I listed a vacant piece of land for sale on the corner of Filbert and Railroad (west side). This property is also next to the Railroad Ave Open Space Trail. I knew from the beginning that this parcel would be controversial because of its location so I took extreme precautions to make sure my sign stayed up.

Instead of using those flimsy real estate sign, I got a 6x6 post and dug a hole 3 feet deep to secure it. The for sale sign was screwed with washers to the post.

It only took 2 weeks for someone to knock the sign down. Not going to be deterred, I filed a police report and then got a bag of concrete and poured it into a deeper hole to secure it. I felt this would do the trick. After all, I poured 60 pounds of concrete into the hole. I also drove past the lot every week or so to make sure it was still there.

But I underestimated the depths to which the eco-terrorists on the Coast will sink. Today, my client called me and said the sign was knocked down. I went out and checked it to find that it was laying on the ground intact. Someone must have pulled a truck up to it with some sort of hoist and pulled it neatly out of the ground. It is too heavy for an individual to lift.

I took pictures and filed my second Police Report today. I also plan on taking much more aggressive steps to help my client sell his property.

I know I've made a lot of new friends here on TA with people like NP, OSM, Imoan and the new Alfred E Neuman. Obviously some of their cohorts think its ok to vandalize private property. I don't know why I should be surprised. This is let's not forget the home of the HMB Torch who burnt down the Beach House a few years ago.

Its only a lousy for sale sign but it speaks volumes to how low some groups will go to trample people's rights. What do you think?


Comments

...it might have just been some punks

...but it sounds like someone keeps coming back

It might be best to leave the sign down!

Do people looking for land typically just drive around?

Controversy or not, I'd love to own that parcel!!

james


Steve, I think you are pursuing a proper approach, in that you ratchet up your position gradually in anticipation of the response, and the response "team" does likewise. Stay cool. You will win, "they" are jackals. As Churchill said, "Never, never, never, never, never give in" Yes, he said five nevers.

A friend had a similar problem to your problem, but he was in the mountains and his gates were being rammed by trucks way back in the woods, and after losing 4 gates in the course of a year, on his 5th response he put in Big I beams buried 6 feet in 300# of concrete, with triple recessed locks, and the 16 foot I-beam arm across his road had 3 foot lengths of 1" rebar spaced 1' apart at radiator level facing outward. That did the trick and my friend has been free of intruders for the last 20 years.

Steve, thanks for sharing. You have friends.


I knew the day I put up the for sale sign, it was going to be unpleasant. I met one property owner on Railroad and he was angry to know there was private property on the west side of Railroad Ave. He thought it was all open space but he was wrong.

There are many lots west of Railroad and backing up to the Coastal Trail. All these lots back in the late 1980's and early 1990's that were re-zoned Planned Unit Development (PUD's). While this was partially done as an attempt to plan the growth and neighborhoods, these were also created to make developing really tough. You watch as more these lots start turning over, the drumbeat to develop this area will increase as the prices rise. These lots again are west of Railroad from Grove to Miramontes. This is prime property worth fighting for. Who knows, this could be the next Beachwood. I should bite my tongue. Many people call from signs as they drive around so they are very important in terms of marketing properties to the public. And besides, my client wants the sign back up now. If things get really bad as far as the eco-terrorists go, I may have to chain a bunch of Red Legged Frogs to the post to scare them off.


Eco-terrorism? Mr. Hyman gets today's belly-shaking guffaw award! The mention of the unsolved Beach House arson in the same message shows his paranoia is cemented in much deeper than his failed sign post. Fact is, he has no clue who or what kind of person is trashing his sign.

He shoots from the hip and hits his foot. Again! What a gas!


NP,

Are you suggesting that an idle punk is "randomly" doing this to a real estate sign? Wow, what a concept. Let me see, how many other real estate signs have been uprooted twice in the last 2 weeks? ? ?

It is not nearly as hard catching thugs as You might imagine. For example, one might get a camera, or install a vid cam, or a web cam or... Oh well, I don't want to tip you off too much.

Geez, now I am tempted to get a camper and park it...somewhere.

For you from the dark side...You might consider wearing a hoodie...


Its hard to say who would want to knock this poor defenseless sign down. Many neighbors dislike adjoining parcels be sold because they loose their view or parking lot. What's true is they had to go to extremes to knock it down twice. You would also have to walk through around 50 feet of weeds and prickly bushes to get to my lot west of Railroad.

Because the sign was buried in cement, someone would need mechanical means to remove it. Maybe Arnie could do it.

This was a premeditated repeated act. Don't poor little signs have rights. This could cause long term psychological damage resulting in some sort of persecution complex to where they tremble in fear at the sight of approaching humans.

Anyway, I'll keep taking more aggressive tactics to help my client and protect the safety of defenseless signs against the evil forces out here on the Coast. And I'll keep you all posted as this battle continues. We know this isn't the last chapter.


"Its hard to say who would want to knock this poor defenseless sign down."

Exactly! You don't know, but that doesn't slow you down from jumping to a completely unsupported conclusion. And tossing an unsolved arson into the same message as somehow relevant.

And now it's "evil." Yikes! Morality through the eyes of a real estate agent? I look forward to laughing at future bloatifications. (Nope, that last word isn't in your typical dictionary. Extra credit if you know its origin.)


I think they're yanking the signs because of the downturn in the economy. People hit hard by declining portfolios feel frustrated and a sense of hopelessness, so they natuarlly engage in vandalizm to make themselves feel better. That's what the police chief would probably say anyway.


The city of HMB is clearly not very interested in selling any of their 80 parcels to help pay off the $18M Beachwood debt that is due and payable in August 2009. (Mr Hyman has repeatedly suggested selling parcels as a prudent way to address the HMB debt)

Mr Hyman, maybe you could approach the City to buy your client's parcel so that the people on Railroad could enjoy a "viewshed", similar to that of the neighbors of 144 Kelly, that was bought by the city a couple of years ago for $500,000. With the purchase of your client's parcel by the city everyone is a winner, all that is other than the citizens of HMB. (but those citizens are very used to this recurring dilemma by now).

How much for the parcel?


I'm betting it's the same perps who steal the slow growth candidates' and the democratic candidates signs down. Sent at the behest of their kin, they say.


Steve, how do we know you're not tearing down your own signs in order to pin a rap on the local enviros?


I'm not that strong. It took 2 people and a truck and tools and gallons of water to erect it. Maybe the police can come up with some clues like tire marks or marks on the post. WOW CSI-HMB, what a show.


If there are cable marks on the sign that was so violently reduced to a horizontal position, this could be the work of the infamous, unmarked, dual-rotor, green helicopters known to drop down and lasso offending signs. In some areas so attacked, the entire real estate industry has been brought to its knees. Children of agents and brokers are on the street selling Chicles. Clearly, the economic future of the coastside, to say nothing of the safety and security of its residents, is at stake.


"It is not nearly as hard catching thugs as You might imagine. For example, one might get a camera, or install a vid cam, or a web cam or... Oh well, I don't want to tip you off too much."

Gee, brilliant stuff. I always learn so much from Bill.


Your sign may have simply fallen over, the result of a strong gust of wind combined with wet and saturated ground. On Christmas day we had a 45+ mile per hour wind gust in the same area as your sign.


That's just some cheapskate wanting something for nothing (a view). Nothing to do with eco-anything, come on Steve, you are usually more clued in. We who wish to protect natural resources should do it in an integrated and scientifically and politicly proven method or theory. I realize you are upset but do not dignify these actions with an environmentally charged argument. Watch 'Blazing Saddles' again, check where Hedly LaMar looks up land snatch


Ok, no problem, I will keep an eye on the sign for the next few weeks. I will bring my anemometer, a CSI crew, and an unmarked van. Be not afraid. Let the good times roll.


Perhaps its little NP Want a Be's trying to impress the Grand Master with acts of boldness and incredible daring. They must have stood in awe as you warmed up your pitching arm at your favorite playground and hoped this would get some RLF badges.

But don't worry like Rocky Balboa, this sign will be up before the 8 count and stronger too. Maybe I should add a little plaque saying I survived 2 eco-terrorism attacks and update as needed.


On a more serious note, I knew winds would be an issue here which is why I dug down the hole 3 feet and packed it in a full bag of concrete. Also the top of the sign was facing the ocean so it wasn't blown over.

People walk past this lot every day, which is why I put it up. I also knew this would happen because of the unique location. My only question was how soon and often.


Mack, baby, keep one eye skyward for those helicopters. They can lift and carry away heavy grading and logging equipment and military tanks. Your van, easily recognized by its infra-red characteristics, would be a trifle for one of them using a sky hook. Of course, the fame from being the first van to ever land on the roof of the Ritz could be just the publicity charge your agency needs.


NP,

Surely you jest. Perhaps I need to re-introduce myself, I am Montara, Mr Mack Montara, perhaps you could read about the travails of TGM, or possibly consider reading up on the electromagnetic spectrum, or even stealth technology.

NP, are you aware that you are way out of your league, but of course... you know that.

Have a nice day.

OBTW, NP, what is your "sign"?


Girls,

Why tear down signs? We need jobs, and those signs are about jobs. It is sad to see our community gnawing and eating each other in times of need. Why not just talk to the people living on Railroad St that want a view, perhaps they know who is tearing down the signs, or perhaps they will help catch the thugs tearing down the signs. Or NOT. give them a camera.


Who is holding back housing? I wonder Web Link


Mack said he'd "Let the good times roll"

and park the unmarked van nearby

we'll catch that ever lovin' troll

Mack, most excellent PI, and I...


Initial post reading "eco-terroism is alive on the coast" all in caps-all over a sign? It's a big world out there with a lot of big problems. There's also a lot of people we know with big problems in this economy. This really isn't one of them.


This is certainly a big deal to the owner who would like to sell this property so he can use the money for other purposes. Maybe to you SOR this is not a big deal but $119,0000 is a lot of money to my client. He was also angry to hear that "certain groups" would twice undermine his ability to sell his property.

Despite the City undermining property rights here for the past 20 years, they still have rights and its time we stand up and take back what was taken away.


Gee, haven't the schools been out the past two weeks? And isn't it fairly common knowledge that many teens party down at the beach, accessing through the Alsace 'hood?

Fortunately, teens have never been known to spend idle time causing disturbances or petty vandalism. I suppose it also must have been eco-terrorists who slashed the car tires in the Terrace 'hood.


Steve Hyman: You need to prove definitively for us that you didn't take down your own signs.


Other than my word, I guess I'd have to ask why would I do this and make more work for me and spend more money?

First I bought a 12 foot 6x6 post (not POST) and dug a hole. 2 Weeks later I bought a bag of cement, dug a deeper hole and brought several gallons of water to the site and filed a police report. Yesterday, I took pictures and filed a second police report. Now I have to buy another larger bag of cement, bring gallons of water, dig a deeper hole and design something to make its certain removal more difficult. All told this will waste a few hours of my time.

All this to write a lousy post here. I don't think so.


ACD writes:

"Please take note of the facts...

1. People in this country have property rights.

..."

It seems these discussions always come down to what people believe are their "property rights" and I get the impression that most think they can do as they please within the borders of "their" land.

How about a discussion on what "property rights" people really do have in a more or less urban area?

Here is a question that might be answered: is it fair to believe that you can buy a parcel of land in an area, leave it undeveloped over time while the surrounding land either develops or, more importantly, becomes open space, and then be surprised when "new" restrictions have been placed on its development?


"All told this will waste a few hours of my time". And the constant preaching and whining on Talkabout is productive? It seems like when things are slow you start a complaining thread. Why don't you, with all your spare time, run for city council?


Wow, perish the thought. With my views, I couldn't get elected as dog-catcher. In case you want to know I'm pro-property rights, pro-business, anti-government, anti-regulation, impatient and I watch Fox News. When I'm confronted with a problem, I look for common ground so everyone can move on quickly.

On top of it all, this job is low-paying and would destroy my business.


Sorry about the reference to the infamous "Mike" - its just that he has become the standard bearer and whipping boy for all things of this type. I should have done more research. The main point is, when you have a property for years, pay taxes and other costs on it and your purpose may have been to build a house, does it seem at all fair to have the city simply change the zoning to eliminate the purpose for having that property? We are not in the Soviet Union.


'terrorist'

'evil'

'certain groups'

what a pile of crap and fear mongering. just what do you expect to solve with your police reports? don't the police have better things to do than solve 'signgate'?

this town is 6 months away from bankruptcy and we're worried about real estate signs...


Rather than being critical, none, any positive suggestions?


"The main point is, when you have a property for years, pay taxes and other costs on it and your purpose may have been to build a house, does it seem at all fair to have the city simply change the zoning to eliminate the purpose for having that property? We are not in the Soviet Union."

It's not about fairness. Zoning exists to protect the community from the unfettered ego of the individual property owner. You want to be part of a community, you sublimate some of your own self interest to participate and enjoy common benefits. You want to live a completely self-centered, anarchic life, go live in the Amazon jungle or solitary confinement in prison or an insane asylum. Clearly no one ever set boundaries for you. Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!


Another day gone by, and still not a single tie to eco-terrorism by Mr. Hyman--in spite of the title of this thread.

"In case you want to know I'm pro-property rights, pro-business, anti-government, anti-regulation, impatient and I watch Fox News. When I'm confronted with a problem, I look for common ground so everyone can move on quickly."

Oh my, Laugh of the Day two days in a row! Just where is this "common ground" way out there in right field?

"Who is holding back housing? I wonder Web Link

NP, a resident of Half Moon Bay, 19 hours ago"

Another NP who actually links to an overview of a situation rather than a single-issue diatribe by a flailing zealot? This isn't how my initials are traditionally misused.


What is a pile of crap is that certain groups of people show complete lack of respect for people's private property. As stated above, I knew this site would evoke attacks by the Coast's extremists. It only took 2 weeks for the first attack. Despite extraordinary and costly efforts like securing a 6x6 inch post in a 3 foot hole with concrete, it was uprooted again.

I did feel badly about wasting police time with filing 2 reports but I did it at their station so nobody was taken away from something important. They did say they'd keep driving by the area from time to time.

The next reposting will be even more secure but I know the eco-terrorists will strike again and again. And I'll keep reporting it and reposting it till it sells. BTW, I should thank the ET for the publicity.

On to the bigger issue of Zoning. It also goes by the name of Police Power. How appropriate for HMB and the residents here have been subjected for 20 years of this Police Power Brutality.

I and others like George have cited many examples of a system run amuck causing untold penalties and financial hardship to its long term residents. These PUD's are a perfect example of a good idea wrongfully executed with the main purpose of depriving people of the right to develop or expand their properties.

There is no rational reason for a 50 acre piece of land owned by 8-9 people to single out the only home there sitting on 3 acres and say that it could not be expanded by 1 square foot. Why would the City do this? No other parcel on the Coast has been punished like this. This isn't zoning but Police Power Brutality.


Hi NP,

Please take up my sincere offer to break sesame seed buns from the new upstairs dining room at McDonald's as we overlook our $25 million Wetland Wonderland. If you think I'm funny here, I'll have you rolling in the aisles in person. And best of all, its my treat. How can you refuse?


Erecting a permanent structure using 60 pounds of concrete on sensitive habitat consititutes illegal development. I'm glad someone knocked the damn thing down.


"As stated above, I knew this site would evoke attacks by the Coast's extremists."

And on he slogs, doggedly sticking to his imagined "eco-terrorism" theme without a shred of a clue as to the person or people (or space aliens for all he knows) who are, in fact, deconstructing his sign.


This property isn't on sensitive habitat. It actually borders the disced Railroad Open Space Right of Way on Filbert and Railroad that is trampled by people every day of the week. If 60 pounds of concrete isn't enough to protect my clients right to sell his property from the ET's, maybe I'll get a steel pole next.

And in case you missed the point. This is private property not public property for people like you to destroy, deface or trespass on because you want this property to remain as open space without buying it.


"ET's"? Aha, maybe he doesn't know the difference between "extra-terrestrials" and "eco-terrorists"?

Paranoia strikes deep--at least three feet deep so far. A "steel pole"? So feeble. So the real monkey wrencher would have to break out his Sawzall instead of chopping it down? Big deal. We know that is not what is going on here, don't we?

Gives me a new idea for a product to be sold to the real estate industry: the Eco-Terrorist Crying Towel. So much emotion. So few facts.


"$1190000".

"This property isn't on sensitive habitat"

Keep it up Steven!

Any more 'info' on this property and you won't have to pay for the MLS listing.

Oh! and about the steel pole could you make it about 2 inches in diameter and smooth to the touch?

Personally don't really care,

but I know a girl who does


Chrome or brass is fine


Hey gang,

I deleted a couple of the comments here. Steve, please no more information about the property (water connections and so on.) I think that leaks over into advertising.

And please no threats, even if made in jest.

Thank you.


EGOG,

Make sure you are dressed properly for the surveillance with the CKCR Gang Do-Rag. $19.95 at better gun shops and patriotic bookstores. Discounted to $15.95 if purchased simultaneously with The University of Lodi Mail-Order Real Estate Program or with a donation of $100.00 or more to the Pacific Legal Foundation.


Steven

I was using the price you posted (above) 8 hrs ago $119,0000

whatever $119,0000 is ??!

Oh! And a fully paid CCWD water connection.

Good!

Keep it up!

let's see how much more you can push the

"No Advertising" TalkAbout rule

Soooooo trans parent


As the City has painfully discovered, when you change the zoning on a property reducing its value you owe the owner of the property the difference between the rezoned value of the property and its value under the previous zoning.

Mr. Ferrrira championed making the Beachwood property worthless by insisting on a definition of wetlands that ignored the fact that the flooding on this property was man made and not natural. Indeed the City's poor engineering caused the flooding. Now the City owes the property owner the loss in value the property has exerienced because you cannot develop a wetland. We are about to pay $18,000,000 plus years of interest for this property that as it is currently zoned is worth nothing.

The protection that prevents the government, in this case our City government, from taking your property and not paying for it is the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution. Ignoring individual rights because you want to stop growth is a failed policy. If the City wanted to use the Beachwood property for a different purpose than what it was zoned for in the Local Coastal Plan, they should have negotiated with the owner to buy it.

When Mr. Keenan offered to sell the property to the City an arrogant no-growth Council majority told him they did not need to buy it; their plan was to take it by calling it a wetland.

The City Council has the legislative right to define a wetland however they choose, but as we have seen this does not give them the right to take the property without paying for it.


One right of center Federal Judge's ruling doesn't set a legal precedent. The property right wacko's are merely having a field day with this, because a bunch of their accolades failed to exercise proper judgment in protecting the City they swore to represent.


To my good friend OSM, what's a digit among friends even if its a middle one. The price is $119,000 and you accidentally wrote $1190000. Being the ethical person I am, I never would have let you over pay that despite the fact I'd be giving up big commission dollars.

But you are wrong in that this is advertising. Its about the extreme efforts some of the Coast's finest residents will repeatidly do to trample people's property rights by trespassing, destruction of property, restraint of trade and maybe even free speech. Its only a little sign but the issue is big. And what the City did to these PUD owners is even bigger and more outrageous.


How much free advertising is Clay going to provide Mr. Hyman?


As I tried to say, this post is about the abuse property owners have to deal with when they own land that blocks views, next to in this case a 60 foot wide open space trail given away by the City to restrict access to many parcels, wetlands and endangered species.

With 100-200 individually owned parcels here, this is going to be one of the next big and expensive battles facing HMB. Its only a matter of time till the PUD owners start making noise and reclaim their rights. I'm no lawyer but these PUD's come really close to a taking.


Eco-Terrorism IS Alive and well here on the coast. It comes in many forms. I've written and spoken to this topic many times. Most know how I feel.

For repeated examples, one need look no further than here Web Link

Whether it's a yanked realtor's sign, the torching of a hotel, Beachwood, or all the methods in between, serving the interest of a few at the expense of us all, and violating laws along the way all fit in this category.


Steven Hyman writes:

"As I tried to say, this post is about the abuse property owners have to deal with when they own land that blocks views..."

Belongs in a disclosure statement not TalkAbout. Have you considered how every other property owner in town feels about you stirring the pot in our community on this forum. You may think you are standing up for the average homeowner, but many of us think you are doing a pretty good job of depressing property values further in your lame attempt to communicate your UNPROFESSIONAL OPINIONS.


"Have you considered how every other property owner in town feels about you stirring the pot in our community on this forum."

Stirring the pot? Is that the politically correct way of saying 'exposure'? Perhaps you aren't comfortable with Hyman's views, views he's been expressing for ten years. If you are uncomfortable, that's unfortunate, but please don't confuse your own thoughts by attempting to lump them with "...every other property owner in town...".

The depression of property values you comment on are due to many factors. Most of those factors have to do with our government, both local and national.

I might add that just like you and me, Hyman is free to express his opinions, both personally and professionally; even when they mix within the same expression.

I, for one, am glad that he takes the time and effort to do what he does.

Had we listened to Hyman in 2000, we wouldn't be dealing with the Federal Court Judgment and the $41 Million penalty.


Sorry you feel that way but I've been educating the public for over a dozen years now. I have my views and they've been pretty consistent over time. What is an unfortunate reality here is that many properties were rezoned a long time ago and most people didn't know it.

1800 homes were rezoned making them mostly sub-standard and remodeling difficult and expensive. The City was quick to respond to this because of the magnitude of the problem and the huge potential liability.

In other cases like the PUD's I mentioned here and previously, the City has turned a deaf ear. By bringing these things to the public's attention, it gives them a chance to hopefully right the wrong.

Raw land owners have been the biggest victims of tightening regulations and increased fees making it very hard to sell in both the City and County i. The biggest outrage is how poorly the family on Terrace Avenue were treated. Things like this should never have happened. Its really a disgrace.

My bringing things to the public's attention isn't depressing property values. Our leaders foolishly pursuing endless litigations and getting slammed with a $41 million judgment depresses real estate values. Perhaps you should redirect your anger at the people who caused the problems.


You are up on your soap box demanding the City hold a distress sale of it's surplus properties. It might make a little more business for some local Realtors, but it makes it sound like the City is going bankrupt. Do you know with any kind of certainty how the Beachwood situation is actually going to be resolved over the next six months? You claim to care about he little guy. What about depressing the value of someone's home in HMB that is forced to sell because of job loss or an illness in the family? Do you have the approval of all the local Realtors to speak for them?


Steve said:

"What is an unfortunate reality here is that many properties were rezoned a long time ago and most people didn't know it."

My City Planner wife tells me this can't legally happen without the property owner's knowledge.

So... why didn't they know this?

I can see two alternatives:

1) they bought the property after the re-zoning and chose not to read the disclosures, or

2) they ignored the repeated noticing of the proposed changes to zoning.

Are there other possibilities?


George joins Hyman in making baseless, factless accusations of "eco-terrorism." Gee, what a surprise.

And then there is this cutie: "Mr. Ferrrira [wish I could roll my "r's" like that] championed making the Beachwood property worthless by insisting on a definition of wetlands that ignored the fact that the flooding on this property was man made and not natural."

This, of course, is a total lie on many fronts. The most obvious is that the property was determined to have a capability of 19 allowable housing units on it--a far cry from "worthless."

The property was not "flooded." Wetland areas were deemed by a rightist judge with no credentials in the natural sciences to have been created by the city's poorly engineered drainage of the Beachwood property. The manmade vs. natural issue is not what the judge's decision was about, as a reading of Walker's decision shows. The city was said to have failed to maintain the drainage system. But Keenan was given a free ride (and assumed by the judge to be a total idiot, I suppose) for any responsibility to recognize what drainage conditions obviously existed when he purchased the property and for failing, himself, to make any effort to maintain drainage after purchase.

In his cockeyed decision, Walker overlooked wetlands on Beachwood that were not associated with the city's failing drainage project; and Keenan failed to mention wetlands in his own environmental documents some years before.

The 19 allowable units, by themselves, did not allow Beachwood to be considered a "taking" under the 5th Amendment that is misrepresented in Larimer's message above. This and the many other failings contrary to facts of the Walker decision cried for appeal. But the City Council, favoring overdevelopment and failing to get legal advice from firms successful with such appeals, punted and threw away their only chance to get out from under the financial load of Walker's decision.

And so our local shills for overdevelopment and government serving a few special interests rather than the people of Half Moon Bay continue with their attempts to rewrite history and make a greedy developer not content with an allowable degree of development that would have made him a fine profit seem like an injured party in the whole mess.

The loadathon continues with every such lying, fictional rehash by those self-interested in further wrecking HMB's government, finances, and environment.


More Info, yes, there is at least one more.

What would you say to all the property owners, and home owners whose zoning was changed in 1996 with a line on a map, without any notification what-so-ever?


My opinion about the Beachwood mess from the beginning over a year ago was to get out of this as cheaply as possible and that included selling off land. I thought AB 1991 was a stroke of genius and would have cost the City $0. I frankly didn't care what happened to this unattractive infill parcel near McDonalds as long as it cost us nothing.

Beachwood is really a joke. Its also unfortunately a $25 million joke for a piece of property that's worth $3-4 million. Truly an amazing blunder of incredible proportions.

Getting money from the State was fine with me too. I'll take it anyway I can as long as we don't have to stick our hand in its pocket. That option is now looking less likely with the State's financial crisis.

I'm very much against the bond because of the long term expense we will be committing ourselves to and the large percent it will consume of our small budget. I also find bankruptcy repugnant.

I still favor selling land but as a short term move, we should take out a mortgage on key City properties and repay as properties are sold. These will be hard to sell under the best of terms but its still better than incurring a 30 year debt payment.

Very few realtors will make money off selling these parcels. In case you haven't noticed from my earlier comments, raw land hasn't been selling well for years.

Its true homes are hard to sell now. Prices dropped in 2008 by 7% and sales volume was the worst in more than 20 years and half of what it was back in 2004.

And to your last point, I don't have the approval nor need the approval to speak for realtors. This is my opinion as a broker and business owner. I guess if the Review didn't like my opinions, they would have dumped me years ago. I can tell you that I've gotten many compliments from Samcar for my community service efforts. Anyway, this is free advice so take it for what its worth.


"I thought AB 1991 was a stroke of genius and would have cost the City $0."

How could a bill so stupidly contrary to a whole spectrum of well-established environmental regulations and bound to draw objections from major politically established environmental forces of many kinds throughout the state be considered "genius." I always wonder what is dominating a person's thoughts when I hear such a thing--ignorance or arrogance.

Not that the current City Council allowing such a bill to be dictated in the language of the settlement with Keenan is any surprise. I hear they are considering changing lobbyists to a firm in which William Duplissea is a principal. With some people, learning appears to be impossible.


I's starting to think this whole sign knock-down thing is a setup, not by Hyman, but by people who don't like environmentalists.

Maybe the same people behind the fake HMB Review attack Ad regarding the CUSD election a few years ago decided to pull another fake job with this sign--trying to make their political opponents look bad.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit. But still I'm glad the damn sign is down. Hyman needs a building permit to pour concrete and he didn't have one.


To More Info, there are several ways this can happen. A property may not see the write-up in the local paper where these things are published. This was the case with the 60 year property owner who couldn't expand her home even though she lived on the property at the time of rezoning.

A few of my other clients don't live in HMB but have owned property for over 30 years and were unaware of the changes. They say, the City never notified them in writing.

Homes change ownership so many new owners are unaware of the changes until they apply for a permit. That was the case with regard to many of the 1800 homes that were rezoned from r1 to r1b2.

Let's face it HMB is not big time so its easy for things like city meetings and decisions to be overlooked by the public at large. And 15-20 years ago, tv and the internet didn't exist so if you didn't get the Review or attend meetings, you were unaware of changes.

That's just a few examples I can think of now.


And how can anyone who was actually here and paying the slightest attention say AB 1991 would have cost the city "$0"? The city immediately started spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on (ultimately) futile lobbying for passage of the travesty.


"I guess if the Review didn't like my opinions, they would have dumped me years ago."

Says more about the Review than your opinions.


"Homes change ownership so many new owners are unaware of the changes until they apply for a permit. That was the case with regard to many of the 1800 homes that were rezoned from r1 to r1b2."

But, of course, this would never happen with a property sold through one of our angelic local real estate agents, would it? Our local agents always make sure all important information about a property, such as zoning, is fully disclosed during a transfer.


Beachwood seems to be one of those controversial and divisive issues where there seems to be little common ground. To me and many others, we are fine with overturning any environmental laws to get out of paying the crushing judgment for our past mistakes. There is nothing special about this infill lot.

To others, the laws are more important than the crushing financial burden this will place on the City. Of course, the fallacy with this thinking is that we can't afford another defeat. But our defeat shows others how weak we are so we will fold because we can't afford to fight.

This flawed strategy by the no-growth groups has seriously weakened us for the next battle. Parcels like the ones off of Railroad will be easier to push through because the City won't have the money for another lengthy costly legal battle.

People with limited resources should pick their battles carefully instead of shooting their wad fighting everything. As George pointed out, I wrote about this scenario back in 2000. Sadly for 8 years we stood there like a deer frozen in the headlights of the oncoming car.


I just don't buy it. Ranting about eco-terrorists over what appears to be a minor case of vandalism. Pontificating about how the City Council should have navigated their lawsuit. Calling for a City garage sale. Scaring potential real estate customers. Then, " Prices dropped in 2008 by 7%" I'm sure you have some whacked out statistic to justify that bit of fiction. Please spare us the justification. Now, deep pocket speculators are going to sweep in like carpet baggers and pave paradise.

You're become a loose cannon. Worse than George. You have crossed over from representing the profession at large, to representing the lunatic fringe of property right wackos. You won't be happy, until every man woman child and dog in HMB has paid good money out, for the eco-sinners that you point your judgmental finger at.


"This flawed strategy by the no-growth groups has seriously weakened us for the next battle."

Yet more flaming rhetoric with no basis in fact. There are no-growth individuals on the coastside, but no no-growth groups. Unfortunately.


It's interesting to note that there are those that either, sadly, believe there are not any no growth groups on the coast, or know it but won't admit it, or acknowledge it for whatever reason.

A few that pop up in most people's minds would be the league for coastside protection (lcp), HMB Open Space Trust, Committee for green foothills, POST, and the Sierra Club. Most people have learned the difference between what one says and what one does.

Just because a charter has words like "responsible" or "controlled” preceding the word growth doesn't mean that organization’s actions and deeds fit under either subjective category (unless, of course, you're one of the group).

We’ve been over this way too many times for anyone posting on TA not to know.


Facts, it is you who needs to get your facts straight. While under normal circumstances, knocking down a sign would be vandalism but here extraordinary measures were taken twice to secure it. Its location of being directly next to the Railroad Open Space Strip, where 1-2 months ago there was a tour of tis 50 foot wide piece of dirt made it visible for all to see. These parcels represent one of the next battles in town, which is why it was knocked down and will be again.

Its hard to comprehend why Beachwood wasn't settled 10-15 years ago sparring us wasting $5 million on lawyer fees. Combining this fiasco with monies spent on Pacific Ridge and N Wavecrest, $10-15 million was squandered with little to show. What a huge waste of our mooney that could have been used to build parks or other things.

I still think its cheaper getting money by selling off assets than paying $1.5 million on a bond for 30 years. Then there will be nothing left in our budget for anything else but salaries and supplies. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

As far as my data goes, a few have questioned it but no one has been able to refute it with facts. So you know, all my statistics come from our MLS and I have been using this same data for the past 12 years so if nothing else it is consistent.

And to NP, I said that the flawed strategy of fight, fight, fight has weakened us for the next battle is true. We blew untold millions on lawyers and now need to come up with $18 million dollars. That means our small budget, which is in the red for the next 1-2 years, will not have surplus funds to waste on legal fees. So legal challenges from some of these big parcels like on HWY 1 or Railroad will be hard to fight. Instead of selecting your battles wisely, your friends failed strategies of shooting your wad has left us without much more ammo for another battle. Short-sighted, arrogant and foolish.

And to the silly remark about no-growth groups. Perhaps you have an organized group like Weed Lovers of America or Friends of the Red Legged Frogs with annual dues for legal defense like SAMCAR or CAR. But I bet most of your friends belong to other organizations like the ones that helped sink 1991.

Anyway, gotta go and work on my design to fortify my sign for the next assault.


"George" wrote:

"More Info, yes, there is at least one more.

What would you say to all the property owners, and home owners whose zoning was changed in 1996 with a line on a map, without any notification what-so-ever? "

I would say that if the zoning change were truly a capricious redrawing of boundaries on a map then the property owners could easily sue to have that reversed. Probably depending on how many ticks of the clock from the "discovery" of this capriciousness.

If they have been unsuccessful in reverting to the original zoning then the city obviously has followed a more correct procedure which would have involved noticing.


"Steve" writes:

"A property may not see the write-up in the local paper where these things are published."

Proper noticing involves letters to the affected property owners - sent to the address listed in the county's tax register (an address that tends to stay up to date). Posting in local newspapers is to provide notice to the general public.

"A few of my other clients don't live in HMB but have owned property for over 30 years and were unaware of the changes. They say, the City never notified them in writing."

If they truly never received written notification then I would believe the property owners have a legitimate beef with the city (and I would even be on their side). Of course, if the city employees are doing their job, they will have records of who was noticed by mail so it should be simple to verify if the letters were sent.

"Homes change ownership so many new owners are unaware of the changes until they apply for a permit. That was the case with regard to many of the 1800 homes that were rezoned from r1 to r1b2."

This sounds like a buyer not doing their homework. Its a little bit hard for me to have sympathy in this case. Its quite simple to check a property's zoning and have someone explain to you what that means.


I know for a fact that more than two of my clients who owned PUD's here were never notified in writing by the City. That's what they told me and that's what one of them told the former City Manager in my presence. I don't know how you could ever prove who received what almost 20 years ago.

With regard to your other point, you are correct. Over the years, disclosure forms have become much more lengthy and many give the buyer the right to examine county/city records to see about permits and violations. If for some reason a buyer isn't interested in immediately expanding their home, they may not check out specific zoning regs for their neighborhood.

The real question here with the re-zoning of all these 1800 homes is why did the City do it? What was the reason? Same question goes for the little home on 3 acres that could not be expanded by 1 SQFT?

Seems to me this was done for punitive reasons.


Steven Hyman writes:

"Facts, it is you who needs to get your facts straight. While under normal circumstances, knocking down a sign would be vandalism but here extraordinary measures were taken twice to secure it. Its location of being directly next to the Railroad Open Space Strip, where 1-2 months ago there was a tour of tis 50 foot wide piece of dirt made it visible for all to see. These parcels represent one of the next battles in town, which is why it was knocked down and will be again."

I'm sure the HMB Police are rolling on the floor laughing about his one, like many of us are. Are Realtors some sort of special victims that the police should rush out and take DNA samples from all the spent condoms and fingerprints lifted from every beer can on your precious listing to find the perps. and the rest of us good citizens should make sure our voting registrations are current, so we can be on a jury when the perps. go to trial and meat out the rightful punishment the perps. deserve? You are reveling in your victimhood spinning it into self serving and customer serving advertising. I have to wonder along with others here whether you did it yourself? You have demonstrated motive here on TalkAbout and clearly had the opportunity.

Maybe some property rights wacko is highly motivated by your latest sales tactic to own a piece of coastal land that you predict will be the next battleground worth fighting over. Sounds dumb to me to turn off 99% of the buyers market for that 1%. But, you claim to be the real estate genius.


More Info states, "My City Planner wife tells me this can't legally happen without the property owner's knowledge." She is obviously accustomed to dealing with other cities and isn’t familiar with the special characteristics of HMB.

Next, he lists two alternatives, then asks, "Are there other possibilities?"

I responded with yes, there's at least one more, and thumbnail an occurrence.

More Info's response to that was the victim could sue: "I would say that if the zoning change were truly a capricious redrawing of boundaries on a map then the property owners could easily sue to have that reversed." Yes, I know that, but is that the best course of action? Just because one can sue, does that mean they should? Isn't that part of the mindset problem in HMB? And where has that gotten us, More Info?

On another thread, Farmer! Farmer! Sound The Alarm!!, Web Link , I detailed the occurrence I used as an example (above). So that I don't have to type it all out again, I'll just repost it here:

In 1995, HMB was doing the finishing touches, wrapping up our LCP for submission to the Coastal Commission (CCC). Part of that submission includes zoning maps.

I live on Redondo Beach Road, here in town. In the early 1970’s, most of the ranch was sold for OC. We kept a few acres. This property was zoned R1B2 at the time.

Back to 1995, some overpaid moron, in preparing the maps for submission, screwed up and placed us in the OC PUD, then through the City, forwarded that mistake to the CCC for Certification. We were never notified.

Had I not looked at a City zoning map, at the suggestion of a friend, I still wouldn’t know. In 2004, I saw the error and attempted to correct it. I wasn’t very popular with the prior Council. They had no interest. Jack Liebster was Planning Director at the time. He didn’t want to be bothered, either. I became a bit more assertive, and they told me to fill out a zoning change request and submit it, along with almost $7,500.00. I got a little more assertive. I told them they screwed it up, and they were going to fix it. That’s when the fight started.

Long story short, on July 3, 2007, this Council admitted the mistake, produced all the background paperwork and maps (correct), along with a Staff Report and Resolution. They put me back to R1B2.

To this very moment, however, that Resolution still sits within City Hall. It has not been forwarded to the Coastal Commission, yet. In less than 30 days, it will total 15 years and it’s still not done. I know of many others as a result of the 1995 mapping morons.

It’s no wonder HMB gets sued so much. It seems that’s the only thing they pay attention to.

How much patience would you have?

George, a resident of Half Moon Bay, on December 3, 2008 at 7:31 pm

So, could I sue? Yes. Would I win? It certainly appears that way. Is that my only course of action? It’s getting close.

Eco-Terrorism comes in many forms, as I’ve stated before. Lack of appropriate action by our elected officials might qualify.

What do you think, More Info (and I’m not trying to be a smart***)? To my last question on that piece, “How much patience would you have?”


Dear "none", I am so sorry but you have missed the point entirely. Yes, indeed HMB is facing bankrupcy and for reasons that are NOT very far related to this sign incident. This sign is a "sign" of what is wrong with our community, physically tampering with the sign is not lawful and represents a selfish and disrespectful mindset for the rights of people who live on this coast. I am the owner of this property and I do have the right to place a sign on it so that it can be sold. I have lived in California coastal communities for many years, in fact, I lived in Malibu Ca where and when the Coastal Commission was born. This commision was a good thing and we all welcomed an effort meant to protect and conserve our coastal lands and beaches. Somehow HMB and its unincorporated neighboring communities are not in touch with the spirit of the commission's mission. The interpretations are very very selfish and sometimes lead to destructive and violant behavior. I am sure that we all are aware that man and nature are not separate and that we must behave in a way that will be of mutual benefit and preservation. Again, this sign incident [and others as well, i.e. the burning down of the Beach House] illustrates what some people will do to preserve their selfish views and has nothing to do with species conservation. This perhaps defines "eco-terrorism".

(sorry for misspelled words)


Dear "facts", you seem to miss the point also! Your comment needs refinement and more clearly presented. We are addressing an unlawful act that was committed in our comunity, trying to twist the "facts" into some obsured explanation that Mr Hyman is tearing down his own sign is a ploy to deter attention from the actual issue.


Steve- this is all pretty strange. I always read your columns with a little bit of skepticism considering your profession. The Review does it's readers a disservice by having your represent the realtor view. Mix it up a bit.

This has all gotten "over the top". I bought and sold 3 homes with a wonderful realtor (definitely would not be someone who posts like you do).


Just so everyone is clear, we have for many years welcomed columns from Realtors for the top of our real estate section. Steve has been kind enough to contribute, as have others. In fact, we have a column from another Realtor scheduled for this week. There is no exclusive deal there, nor any pay for the columnists.


First let me please make something clear, I am not a spokesperson for any real estate group, etc. Nor do I receive any compensation for writing for the Review for the past 12 years. These are my views alone.

I have written about how property owners and particularly vacant land owners have been abused for years. Destroying property, preventing the right to sell ones property several times is not ok. And the highly visible location next to the Railroad Right of Way and next to the Coastal Trail makes this sign a high visibility location and sadly target.

My client hired me to sell his property. He is angry that his rights are being thwarted but he still expects me to do my job. Speaking out is my way of letting other property owners know that there are people out here who will go great efforts to stop you from selling land.

I would think a seasoned real estate owner like you would appreciate having hired someone who will go the extra mile and fight hard for you.


So now, and once again, we can add "no growth" to the term "eco-terrorism" as common words and phrases in this thread with definitions beyond the dull, manipulated, agenda-driven ken of people like Hyman, George, and Tony.

One wonders how discussions like this might change if all taking part would stick to the same established language rather than trying to redefine and spin terms to suit their personal fancies and fictions.


NP,

From your comments it does not appear that you own any property. It is not clear that you fully understand the fifth amendment, or the rights of an owner of a parcel on Railroad to advertise the parcel to sell on his property and that is totally within his rights. At times I wonder, NP, just what your point is, or if you have one, or if you simply want to bedevil Talkabout. I do not recognize any similar palaver on coastsider, is that due to anonymity alone? No response is needed, this is mostly for the benefit of others.


Mr Hyman,the more you post on this thread

The clearer it gets

All this thread is

is just a marketing ploy for you

It is clear you are position yourself in the market place as the Champion of the poor down trod sub-standard lot owners

Your tactic of branding innocent people who don't agree with you as

" Eco-Terriorists

There by, DISCREDITING your opposition is a common tactic employed all over the world

But it won't wash here on the Coast with educated savvy Coastsiders

Your fiasco has backfired on you

As it is obvious to most that the only people in the cost who would mess with your sign is the people who were told they were buying Ocean front/view property and then after having paid top dollar they are threatened by the loss of 1/2 a million dollars in their homes, reduced property value once the new houses are built in front of them

Ya see Steven you missed one thing when you talked about Eco-Terrorists up rooting your 6x6 pole in 3 ft of 60lb concreat

MOTIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well you knew that didn't you?


That's actually an easy question to answer. People don't want their views blocked. They want this beautiful strip of land (unlike Beachwood) kept as open space for free without having to pay for it.

This sounds just like the Save Our View Crowd and the Burnham Strip when it almost sold earlier this year. People wanted it to remain open. Funny thing was they didn't have the money to pay for it.

Same old battle just a new location.


Mr Hyman,

the more you post on this thread

The clearer it gets

This thread is just a marketing ploy for you.

You say nothing to convince me otherwise.


Hyman says, "People don't want their views blocked. They want this beautiful strip of land (unlike Beachwood) kept as open space for free without having to pay for it."

Hey Steve, would that be like Grady and 144 Kelly? You remember that parcel, don't you. It adjoins Grady's on the northwest side. What a view it offers; from Pillar Point to the Ritz!

It's not worth much now, even though the City (we) paid $500,000.00 for it. There's a conservation easement on it from the 2005 Council that this Council has not lifted.

In the meantime, or perhaps forever, Grady will continue to benefit at all our expenses.

Railroad properties, Hmm?


Now Pitching is once again spinning a web of half truths in his comments above about the Beachwood case. Lets be clear on some basics that are evident from reading the Federal Court ruling and the State Appeals Court unpublished ruling.

The State Court ruled that the City of Half Moon Bay had the legislative authority to interpret a definition of wetland as they wished. This Court did NOT confirm that the definition of wetlands used by the City was required or rationale. The Court ruled the City has the authority to interpret their definition however they pleased. The State Court ruling was unique to this case; by making it unpublished it does not set any precedent for law in California.

There is no higher authority that could prevent the Half Moon Bay City Council from interpreting their definition harshly; and they did. They could for example define pi to be 22/7's. The value of pi, a transendental number, is not written into US law so local government can choose to define it even though they are wrong and irrational in doing so. The point here is that the wetland interpretation was arbitrary, it did not depend upon a scientific principle as Now Pitching attempts in infer. He is wrong.

The Federal Court took the City's interpretation of wetland as in force. It was a given that the Beachwood property was now a wetland in Half Moon Bay. It would not be almost anywhere else, but that was not the issue of the case. The facts showed that the City approved an improper engineering design for a storm sewer on the property, removed top soil which created depressions that flooded, and then failed to either fix the storm sewer or maintain it. The facts show that the City caused the flooding of the property by its actions and inactions.

The Federal Court judge ruled not on the facts, but on the loss of value the property sustained do to the actions of the City including its overreaching interpretation that the property was a wetland that could not be developed.

The court accepted the City's wetland interpretation, the issue that was decided by the ruling was who created the wetlands and the consequences of that act on the property's value. There was no biology or science in any of this; that is not the court's basis for the rulings.

The apologist Now Pitching would like to elevate these issues to something they are not. The fact is the City's zealous and extreme interpretation of wetlands, an action taken by the no-growth majority that controlled the City in 2000, created the circumstances for the punitive ruling against the City.

How would Now Pitching argue if the Shaughnessy Dam at Hetch Hetchy were the issue? Here too we have man made flooding. We might see a different argument from Now Pitching where Hetch Hetchy the issue.

Steven Hyman's point about environmental extremism is well taken, we have plenty of it right here with lots of apologists for the bad behavior and vandalism of these extremists.


OSM, you asked for MOTIVE!!!!! and I answered it. I guess your attempt at changing the subject shows you don't like the answer.

With all the attention this little lot is getting, you all will help make this the poster child for Coastside property rights. You are inspiring my creative juices. Stay tunned.

George, I'm wondering if the Railroad Open Space Strip ends at 144 Kelly? I know it cures from Railroad and Filbert.

Also being the Coast's unofficial historian, perhaps you can provide a brief history of this 50 foot wide easement that goes from Poplar and Railroad to perhaps 144 Kelly. My cynical opinion is the hidden reason for creating this open space easement was to restrict access to all these lots by thwarting the development of streets like Filbert, Spruce, Central, Correas, MIramontes, etc being extended to these parcels. I also wonder if this action could be viewed as a legal "taking"?

There's really no reason to have created this several block easement when a few hundred yards away is the several mile Coastal Trail that is on the bluffs. How much money did we spend to do this?


This whole discussion is getting out of hand and off the point. I want a sign on my property and if it needs to be patrolled by the police dept so be it. I have lived all accross the entire nation and have never experienced all this nonsense anywhere before. This town needs to be cleaned of incompetency from top to bottom. Mr Hyma, please restore the sign immediately. I greatly appreciate your help.


Marketing Ploy!!??? With a readership of 46 people here? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


Mazzy, lol.you win!

____________________________

"Fix it again, Toney"


All this over a sign? Eco-terrorism? Get over yourself.


If you were trying to sell your property and your sign was repeatidly knocked down, you'd be angry too.


I recall many topics on TalkAbout about political signs being vandalized without resorting to the T word. I doubt Mr. Hyman's sign is the first real estate sign to be vandalized or the last. Motivations for acts of vandalism are as hard to ascribe as it is to identify the perpetrator. The main motivation is to harm anothers property without getting caught. Living in a modern society, who hasn't been the victim of some cowardly act of vandalism born of opportunity, and a need to lash out sometimes indiscriminately. It's a measure of our temperament in how we react as victims.

We as a society should be careful in how we use the T word. It should be reserved for heinous acts designed to terrorize as much of the society and possible. To allow it to be bandied about by Realtors hawking vacant lots is just irresponsible. Our liberties and our status in the larger society demand that we label those that oppose us carefully.


Although, in my mind, there is absolutely no doubt that Hyman's topic is real, important, and needs all the exposure that can be offered, there seems to be differing opinions on this particular sign 'game'.

True, it could be a couple of kids with a 4X4 and too much time on their hands. We have a history, here in HMB, of not affording places for our kids to go or productive things for our kids to do. The list of 'potentials' has always been long. Unfortunately potential and reality are starkly different around here. A Boys & Girls Club, a movie theatre, a bowling alley, active and well stocked parks, and more have been talked to death. Many of those ideas have been acted on, but the no growth faction of our community has forced anything productive into a nightmare. We all lose.

If I were to guess, and that's all it is for me, I'd want to lean more toward kids with too much time on their hands in this particular incident; but that doesn't change the result and because there are those here that obstruct anything productive for our community (but certainly not for their own gain), this incident lends itself well to the eco-terrorism theme.

Anyway we slice it, it's wrong. It has got to stop. Accountability will make that happen. It's coming


"....and your sign was repeatedly knocked down, you'd be angry too."

Get a grip, what happens when something really bad happens to you?

Too much free time on your hands.


Don't care about the subject, just wanted to be the 100th comment!


Centennial,

Your comment carries every bit as much weight and relevance as the 89th comment by Larimer. In fact, and by any objective measure, your comment is superior in that you do not try to play on the possible ignorance of many readers and use semantic manipulations to recast facts to your liking. You also do not slop into the misuse of terms started with the title of this thread.

Most of all, congratulations on your patent honesty, an attribute all too rare and in contrast to those who would manipulate discourse to serve their private ends.


Hi there "now pitching", congratulations sir on congratulating "centenial" for his apathetic statement. I just don't know...


George I'd put the probability of kids doing this at maybe 20% and aspiring eco-terrorists at 80%. It also happened twice with the first attack being within 2 weeks of its installation.I say this because the sign is at least 50-60 feet in from Railroad Ave. In front of my sign by the street are a few City signs that remain completely vertical.

If knocking down a sign is someone's goal, go for the easy ones right by the street.

Anyway, this sign will rise again like the Phoenix and will be stronger than ever. When its done, it will be the most fortified For Sale sign the Coast has ever seen and the most famous too. I'm even going to contact the media and have my son set up a special web site showing what extremes people have to go through to protect their property from the extreme elements that live here.


The continued use of the term "eco-terrorist" really makes you look silly.


Steve, based on your further description, I'd have to say you're probably right. I was a kid once, too (soo many many years ago) and have raised my share as well. The easiest target is usually the one to mess with.

You know, Steve, I've put up a fence or two, and a sign or two in my day. If you need a hand, gimme a call.

The next step, after erecting this not to be messed with sign, is to catch the culprits. Most might think it to be tough, but it's not.

The only problem is going to be what to do with them once you have them, although I'm quite sure you may have thoughts on that.

If people would just mind their own business, they'd stay pretty darn busy, but No, seems they can't do that.

One of the concerns here is that this simple case of childish vandalism certainly has the potential for bad outcomes.

Then we'd all have to ask why? For what? Was it worth it?


Since the sign post was uprooted but the Century 21 sign was untouched (at least as of yesterday when I checked on it again), that makes me feel its one of the aspiring ETs. It would be a blast to have a sign raising party. I'll bring the beer. While its possibly illegal to consume alcohol on the Railroad Easement because of poisoning the sensitive wetland weeds roots with booze after being disced so many times, private property is ok.

As far as possible punishment goes, I'm leaning towards weed boarding or chaining the ET to my sign post and letting them get attacked by the legions of Red Legged Frogs that exist only on vacant lots that are for sale.

But on to a more serious note, perhaps you could educate us on the reason and taxpayer cost for creating this 50 foot wide strip when the Coastal Trail is only a few hundred yards away and goes for miles. I still feel the hidden reason was to restrict access to all these lots. Thanks.


Maybe you could get 60 minutes to come out! How about your own reality TV show- Steve and the stupid sign?


"George I'd put the probability of kids doing this at maybe 20% and aspiring eco-terrorists at 80%."

Having previously demonstrated beyond doubt that he does not even know what the term "eco-terrorist" means, I hope all present and future clients of Hyman will think about this statement and those of the sort in messages above as they have need for sound judgment and advice in their real estate dealings.


Is anyone else concerned about locals who ride motorcycles and off-road vehicles through these lands west of Railroad? It happens. There are also deep tire ruts on the private lands North of Redondo Beach Rd.

POST is now a property owner in this area. Information signs on their land were cut down. Is this another example of local terrorism?


Steve, with reference to the Railroad ROW, I don't know how much I can educate anyone. That has not been a primary focus for me, however ... it has and does continually pop up in my research travels. I’ve just never really focused on it – yet.

Ruddock, who 'served' on the Council from 1992-2000 used to live over on Railroad. She also has a very high profile in the discussions and actions to create and 'protect' that easement. If you go back through the records you'll see her name prominently displayed.

Without having done any research on that specific topic, but knowing the players and their 'interests', I'd have to agree with your assessment.

I can go back through my data and refocus my goal, if you like. I do have one heck of a library to work from.

I can add this, however; The last action by the 2005 Council was to place a conservation easement on 144 Kelly, a property that was for years in great dispute and ultimately purchased by the City for $500,000.00. Toni Taylor, Vice-Mayor at the time and despite missing more meetings than she had attended during the last 5 months of her term, was front and center that night in November, 2005. Grady (Mayor at the time) recused himself from the meeting, as called for, and Taylor took the reigns and marshaled the easement through (12:15 AM).

I was there, along with almost a dozen others. Taylor was the lead when the topic of preserving the RR ROW came up (with Ferreira chiming in), and that was the foundation reason they used to place the easement, even though they were violating CA Code (and were advised of such prior to their decision). There was discussion on how important that strip was, some railroad history, and how this parcel was purchased with that intent, fit nicely and I believe they said completed years of effort. To my mind, it was all well orchestrated BS, and a blatant waste of taxpayer dollars for the benefit of one council member and his family.

I take notes … good notes … on everything. I have my notes from that meeting, although not in front of me.

If you like, and can be patient with me, I’ll find those notes and other pertinent data and get back to you.


glad to see ECOTERRORISM bugs you np.thats reason enough to make it part of coasts vocab.last time you got this worked up was when you pitched a rare strike.anyway it sums you guys up perfectly.truth hurts.


As I read all of these postings, in my mind I try to imagine any other place in the USA, where anyone could really say the following without throwing up---

"It might be best to leave the sign down!" by tfaso

"Eco-terrorism? Mr. Hyman gets today's belly-shaking guffaw award! " by NP

"Steve Hyman: You need to prove definitively for us that you didn't take down your own signs." by We need proof

"Erecting a permanent structure using 60 pounds of concrete on sensitive habitat consititutes illegal development. I'm glad someone knocked the damn thing down. " by imoan

"Your sign may have simply fallen over, the result of a strong gust of wind combined with wet and saturated ground. " by property centrist

But then we also have what passes for normal in all the rest of the USA--

"And in case you missed the point. This is private property not public property for people like you to destroy, deface or trespass on because you want this property to remain as open space without buying it. by Steven Hyman

"It's interesting to note that there are those that either, sadly, believe there are not any no growth groups on the coast, or know it but won't admit it, or acknowledge it for whatever reason." by George

"While under normal circumstances, knocking down a sign would be vandalism but here extraordinary measures were taken twice to secure it. " by Steven Hyman

"I took pictures and filed my second Police Report today. I also plan on taking much more aggressive steps to help my client sell his property." by Steven Hyman

"Why tear down signs? We need jobs, and those signs are about jobs." by SAD

"I knew the day I put up the for sale sign, it was going to be unpleasant. I met one property owner on Railroad and he was angry to know there was private property on the west side of Railroad Ave. He thought it was all open space but he was wrong. " by Steven Hyman

Is it any wonder that the town of HMB is, and has been, on a downward spiral for many years by any measure, whether it is eco-terrorism as Mr Hyman suggests or as measured economically, morally, legally, or simply a massive failure of leadership by our council? Inmates control this asylum when no one confronts them.

Thank you Mr Hyman for confronting the eco-terrorists, and I might add...the save my view crowd.

Bill


It is in fact, eco-terrorism...

Those of you that call it otherwise fall into one of two categories:

1. Those that don't own a parcel worth a lot of money trying to sell it.

2. Those that can't afford to buy a parcel like the one mentioned.

...either way, your reaction is based on simple jealousy.

(I fall into both of those categories, but I've been here long enough to know that "growth happens")

The reference to The Beach House fire is appropriate...

There seems to be more than a handful that feel like this type of vandalism represents a cool, no-growth-unless-it's-me "local" mentality.

After the BH fire, you'll note the project was eventually completed.

There were financial losses, I'm certain, but there was also an incredible amount of local pollution created.

Half Moon Bay and the coastside communities are NOT the sleepy little fishing and flower-farm villages they once were.

But they ARE still a great place to live, and if you're lucky enough, to work!

Peace...


Hi Bill,

You said "But then we also have what passes for normal in all the rest of the USA--"...

Could you name those places in the USA where the comments you go on to list are normal? Or at least name a representative sample? Have you lived in those places?

Oh so much better to deal with specifics rather than hyperbole.

--Darin


Any reasonable person would realize having to spend a few minutes re planting a post

Is nothing more than the cost of doing bu$ine$$

NO-BIG-woop-t-do!

Especially if you are selling a highly controversial piece of land

That once built-out would block the Ocean view of existing homes.

The usual scenario for a crime like this is.....

Dad casually says to his Kids and their kids buddies

"Hmmmm I sure would like it if that sign fell over hmmm hmmm"

And the kids make Dads dream come true..............

I personally condone this type of behavior I think if people wish to protect their ocean view they should buy the land Preferably directly from the owner at fair market value

Oh well I'm sure the FDT.and 60 Minutes Will once again get to the bottom of it.


Until some one is apprehended and confesses or is convicted and states their motivation, this is simply a case of vandalism. To impute a motivation to the vandalism of Mr. Hyman's sign is speculation. Claiming it is terrorism is hyperbole.

Terror - intense sharp overmastering fear.

Mr. Hyman has registered frustration, indignation, hyperbole and even humor in his posting in this topic. Nothing approaching fear.

Terrorizing - to fill or overcome with fear.

Mr. Hyman has been and continues to be undeterred from re-erecting his sign.

Terrorist - A person that favors terrorizing methods.

You people are whipping yourselves into a frenzy, that you may one day regret.


Part of the problem: "Dad casually says to his Kids and their kids buddies"

"Hmmmm I sure would like it if that sign fell over hmmm hmmm"

"And the kids make Dads dream come true.............."

"I personally condone this type of behavior"

My Dad would have whupped my ass from coast to coast if he ever caught me doing something illegal - let alone suggest it. And the poster condone's it!

Part of the solution: "If people would just mind their own business, they'd stay pretty darn busy,..."


From way back when...

"...The early morning fire quickly destroyed the building under construction on Highway 1 at the northern border of Half Moon Bay. As flames engulfed it, bystanders cheered. The on-lookers included some who had complained that the three-story, 54-unit building would block views of the ocean. Palo Alto developer Chop Keenan has vowed to rebuild..."


"Without having done any research on that specific topic, but knowing the players and their 'interests', I'd have to agree with your assessment."

Classic!

"...The early morning fire quickly destroyed the building under construction on Highway 1 at the northern border of Half Moon Bay. As flames engulfed it, bystanders cheered. The on-lookers included some who had complained that the three-story, 54-unit building would block views of the ocean. Palo Alto developer Chop Keenan has vowed to rebuild..."

Not a thing about who did the arson or why. In other words, no evidence at all of "eco-terrorism." To this day, there is not one shred of evidence that is public knowledge. There were a number of kinds of factions involved in the building of the place, all with a record of property destruction on occasion. There is no evidence that any of those did it either.

In sum, only someone totally lacking in critical thinking ability would believe the above quote indicates anything about responsibility for the arson.


James,

Do some checking. Why was there only a cursory arson inspection? Why was the dump opened specially to receive the debris on an expedited basis? Don't buy into the cover story too quickly.


If I still lived on the coastside I would organize a raffle where everybody could toss a name in a hat, any hat will do Virginia, as to who they suspect the"eco terrorist" to be. It'll cost each person a dollar. The nearest able-bodied, honest, coastside human, would count the votes and the winner would be indicted and prosecuted by Half Moon Bay's own, Jim Fox. The funds would go toward satisfying the 18 million ( is it ?) . To those who say this is a silly and illegal stunt to pull, I call your attention to the village idiot and crook who has occupied the White House for eight years and tell yourself this irrational situation isn't possible. "Find a Scapegoat" actually is a new board game that was based on the sequel to June Morral's, "Half Monn Bay Memories."


"Why was there only a cursory arson inspection?" Not so.

The same ATF Agents that investigated the OK bombing were here, investigating the Beach House.

Better dbl chk your sources, PO.


George,

So, what did they find in the debris that was left for them to look at? Did they identify who was responsible?


mccritter,

Your solution is far too practical. Look at what our President has done with his war on terror. Now extrapolate that to The City of HMB with it's propensity to over spend on its Police Department. The City would hire a bunch of overweight people with social problems(think TSA inspectors) and train them in eco-terroism suppression. The citizens driving any vehicle capable of uprooting a real estate sign could be pulled over, strip searched, and hauled off to some foreign country for interrogation. Only, then would our local Realtors feel safe.


Good question, PO. I have no idea what they did or did not find. I was not on the team and not privy to their findings. I'm sure they got the how and more; but the who?

I don't recall anyone being charged. That is a shame.

But to say, or imply that there was "only a cursory arson inspection" is a falacy. Further, that no one was charged (that I recall) does not support or oppose your comment. I know the effort was made.


The burndown was definitely arson, with several points of ignition and, if I recall correctly, the accelerant identified. Beyond that, nothing of substance was ever released to the public--which doesn't mean there was nothing but simply that there was nothing that was conclusive and/or nothing that could be released without compromising possible future investigation.

A few burndowns have been claimed by radical environmental or animal rights groups in places like Oregon and Colorado, but arson like this does not fit typical monkey-wrenching activity. To be effective, monkey wrenching is usually publicized as being in service of some cause or done in a way that will actually stop or greatly disrupt something. Neither was the case with this arson, which was certain to be covered by insurance and almost certain to be rebuilt. There was no publicity message, at least not one that the public was ever told about. And almost all monkey-wrenchers have a strict rule that no one gets hurt by their pranks. Arson is a terrible activity in this regard, inasmuch as firefighters and other emergency personnel could easily be injured or killed, to say nothing of some poor itinerant sleeping in a building under construction.

On the other hand, arson by property owners wishing to collect on insurance, unions (this was a two-gate project), contractors wishing to get paid twice for their work on a project, competitors, firebugs, etc., is not always so considerate.

One imagines the ATF has a few boxes of information adding up to no conclusion stashed away somewhere.


Darin,

First, let me say I have witnessed many of the things that you have done for our community. Thank you.

In response to your query-- "where the comments you go on to list are normal" here are a few places and either I have lived in these places, or I have very close friends that have lived there and I hear their comments and judgment...

Salinas, CA

Springdale, Arkansas

Huntington Beach, CA

Santa Clara, CA

Houston, TX

Randsburg, CA

Bend, Oregon

Orlando, FL

Chicago, IL

Dothan, Alabama

Washington, DC

Hampton Roads, Virginia

St Louis, Missouri

Apache, Oklahoma

Buffalo, NY

New Orleans, Louisiana

and I could go on and on.

but, Darin, your point is what? Are you going to judge the locations with which I am familiar? Are you suggesting that you have a better understanding of what is normal than me? Typical, so typical for you to tell me what you think is more valid than what I know to be true from my own life experiences. What gall. I know what I know. And I trust you to know what you know, and I respect your opinion. Why should you, and must you, challenge my opinion?

IMHO, HMB is so far from normal that it is an aberration, mostly due to eco-terrorism and green envy. and, elitism that has run unchallenged so long it is totally amuck. Amucking Fess.


The fact that the term eco-terrorism has hit a raw nerve among a few is a good thing and warrants its continual use. I guess the truth hurts. There are many ways these tactics have been used here including the 6 year torture of the property owners on Terrace Avenue. Its time to expose these tactics for what they are.

While only a sign was knocked down twice, its location and what the City has done to this area is what deserves attention. Of course the owner, who has responded here, doesn't care about that but just wants his lot sold and the sign reposted immediately.

This is just another one of those areas that property owners have been robbed of their rights. But here, it was done twice with the PUD re-zoning first and then the City creating the Railroad ROW to further block access to this valuable piece of real estate.

Of course if someone like NP or his friends can offer a rational explanation why the City created this 50 wide strip when the Coastal Trail is only a few hundred yards away, I'd be glad to hear it. My reason is stated above.

I'm hoping with all the attention this lot has gotten and will get in the future from further attacks, it can become the Poster Child for property owner rights. I guess we should offer our thanks to the ET for highlighting another area that needs fixing and another tactic from their bag of tricks.


"The fact that the term eco-terrorism has hit a raw nerve among a few is a good thing and warrants its continual use."

Typical brownshirt outlook. It has nothing to do with truth.


"Of course if someone like NP or his friends can offer a rational explanation why the City created this 50 wide strip when the Coastal Trail is only a few hundred yards away, I'd be glad to hear it. My reason is stated above."

Propagandizers and self-promoters seem to thrive on a steady diet of red herring.


NP, don't you know how to answer a simple question. It would be interesting to actually have an honest debate with you because our views are so different but your responses don't make any sense and have 0 to do with the topic. Seems like a bunch of wild pitches to me. But you've heard that before, too bad.


Pay me no attention, Hyman. Get out your dictionary and keep working on finding that truth thing and you might find the happiness you seek.


Steven Hyman writes:

"The fact that the term eco-terrorism has hit a raw nerve among a few is a good thing and warrants its continual use."

The "few" that are obsessed with property rights. Are we to suffer with their narcissism. What about the nation as a whole, the families that lost members to REAL terrorists, the survivors of REAL terrorist attacks. You diminish their place in our thoughts by throwing out your "eco-terrorist", trivializing the word "terrorist". All I see is the most pampered and subsidized business sector in this country whining and behaving in a self serving narcissistic fashion.

You had your glory days during the bubble, now we will suffer for probably a decade unwinding the leverage and figuring out who will pay for your excesses. You people victimized this whole country and now you have the audacity to go on a tirade that somebody knocked your signs down. Stop trying to shove your way to the front of the line of our concerns. We've had enough of you.


Well said to the last two comments! As someone who had a family member die in a concentration camp, I certainly don't consider these property owners to have been "tortured".

People have always had real problems. They have lost jobs and homes.Their families members have been sent to war. People have children with serious illnesses. The list goes on.

I wish the real estate market would pick up so Hyman would have less times on his hands and stop with the temper tantrums. Stop being such a public baby.


Margaret, I think you've got things backward. Most people who own property are concerned with their rights. What we've seen here is that the City has been severely damaged by a few people in trying to trample their rights resulting in the staggering judgment handed down in 2007.

Now we are facing some ugly options as we seek to find $18 million to pay for their failed policies. Trying to save our town seems like a big concern to me. Unfortunately, the people who made the problem worse won't stop until they've forced us into bankruptcy. The sign is just a symbol of this ongoing fight that won't go away and the staggering amount of money wasted in the process.


"The sign is just a symbol" of Hyman chasing the big buck$

His "Eco Terrorism" is just a front

Well you new that didn't you?


I wish selling raw land would make me big bucks but that's not the case For a variety of reasons (lengthy permit approval, rising fees, protesting neighbors, limited financing options, etc), raw land has been one of the worst performing sectors in Coastside real estate with so few sales over the last few years. Buildable lots are hard to sell and PUD's are really hard because of the long holding period till they can be developed.


Once you make a big name for yourself on TV.ect

you will make the big bucks as DEFENDER of the poor down troden speculators

Wooden Trojan Horses come in all shapes and sizes yours just happens to be 6x6x8ft


Sorry Steven,

I hate to inform you, many people rent and many people consider their homes a place to live in. Life is a lot bigger than where people sleep and eat most of their meals. Most average people don't obsesses about real estate. Your columns are buried in the back of the newspaper. Most people really don't care.

Nothing has fundamentally changed with the Beachwood decision. It is one ruling from one judge over what happened to one big investor that spent millions on attorneys. Had the property rights majority on the City Council appealed, the outcome would probably have been different or at least a more reasonable settlement could have been reached. Outside of the Coastside it hasn't changed much. The absolute worst case scenario is the City of HMB can only provide essential services which is pretty much what we have where I live. So, the downside is the politicians in HMB will have no latitude on discretionary items or opportunity to help their cronies. They will have to spend their time making sure they spend what little money they have carefully. It's about time. They blew it, let them live with the consequences. The police and fire and roads will all be there. Homes will still get bought, sold and built. Life will go on.

Keep trying to dramatize your "symbol of the ongoing fight" in ways that benefit you business. Why consider the people that were sold a bill of goods and were foreclosed on? Why consider all the bad paper distributed all over our financial system that fueled the bubble you participated in? All I see is a narcissistic individual humping your version of the American dream, while the rest of the country tries to dig its way out of the hole you helped to create.


For most people their homes are their biggest investment, so for Margret to attack Mr Hyman who is simply helping homeowners and property owners is doubly troubling.

Margret, for you to say "All I see is a narcissistic individual humping your version of the American dream, while the rest of the country tries to dig its way out of the hole you helped to create." That comment puts you in the same group as NP. Simply an agent provocateur, who is not interested in our community or anything other than creating chaos.


This is just pretty strange all over a sign. The all caps title that started this is ridiculous. It reminds me of the 1st grade kid who tattles to the teacher- "he took my blue crayon"- and then whines about it to everyone all day long.

Perhaps the author of this thread should spend less time whining and do a little reading. "Chicken Little" might be a good place to start.


EEEWWW,

Any business person that claims he's looking out for the little guys is just using a well known sales tactic that may or may not be true. How EXACTLY is Mr. Hyman helping the average owner occupied homeowner or renter? How are the average homeowners feeling about all the advice in his column about how solid home prices were on the Coastside? How do the people being foreclosed on feel? How do the Sheriffs deputies feel about putting people out on the street? How do you feel about your bank failing? How do you feel about having to spend your tax dollars to reinforce banks that bought the toxic mortgages to fuel Mr. Hyman's business? How so you feel about having to spend tax dollar to stimulate other business that can't sustain the losses caused by the real estate value collapse? Do you really think you and your other family members will survive the next couple of years financaily? How do you feel about an economy that is so warped by the lobbying of Mr. Hyman's industry, that it will likely take a decade to restructure?

No one lives in the lot with his "symbolic" sign. An investor or speculator owns it and wants to sell it. Mr. Hyman is just one of way too many Realtors in our society. He's a business man out to make a profit from his labors.

I'm hardly an agent provocateur. Just someone that speaks their mind. I'd like for Mr. Hyman to recognize his place in our society. He and his fellow Realtors have been the ones "creating Chaos."


Amen.


Margaret, you sure seem very angry. It would appear there’s more to your lashing than Hyman’s post and topic. I might suggest we all be concerned with property rights, whether we are owners or not. Whether one owns property in HMB or not, everyone in HMB will be negatively affected by the decision handed down by Judge Walker – possibly for decades.

From your initial post you say, “What about the nation as a whole, the families that lost members to REAL terrorists, the survivors of REAL terrorist attacks.” You make a valid point here. You follow, however, with, “You diminish their place in our thoughts by throwing out your "eco-terrorist", trivializing the word "terrorist". I would disagree with this, if for no other reason than you are the only one that can measure and categorize input you receive. For example, at its core and by itself, it’s just a stupid sign; but when added to the list of actions by enviro whackos (IF that’s who’s doing this), it’s much more, and a symbol of what should be perceived as radical, illegal behavior.

You continue with, “You had your glory days during the bubble, now we will suffer for probably a decade unwinding the leverage and figuring out who will pay for your excesses.” Now honestly, Margaret, do you think it’s fair and appropriate to blame Hyman for the mortgage meltdown and Wall Street excesses? A bit of a reach, I’d say.

You close your initial post with, “You people victimized this whole country and now you have the audacity to go on a tirade that somebody knocked your signs down. Stop trying to shove your way to the front of the line of our concerns. We've had enough of you.”

“…you people?” “We've had enough of you.”? It appears you have a lot of anger. Perhaps you are struggling right now. If that’s the case, that’s unfortunate; and you’re not alone, although that doesn’t help. But don’t you think it’s just a bit over the top to blame the current local, state, national, and international financial crisis on Hyman? I do.

In a following post you say, “Nothing has fundamentally changed with the Beachwood decision. It is one ruling from one judge over what happened to one big investor that spent millions on attorneys.” Just so you know, we (City) spent millions, to. The only winners here were the attorneys (both sides, as always). For everyone else, it’s simply degree of loss. The hardest part for me to swallow is that none of this, I mean absolutely none of this had to happen – and there were countless opportunities for the City to stop it, but they didn’t. We are now faced with the very real possibility of paying out $50 Million, over 30-40 years. Insignificant? I don’t think so. For my children, and their children, to be saddled with this debt is unconscionable. And because you live in El Granada and don’t think it will impact you directly, it appears you seem to trivialize the matter. I sure don’t.

Your closing comments from that post say a lot: “All I see is a narcissistic individual humping your version of the American dream, while the rest of the country tries to dig its way out of the hole you helped to create.” If that’s truly how you feel, you’re in more trouble that I thought, and I feel for you.

In your latest follow-up post you ask, “How EXACTLY is Mr. Hyman helping the average owner occupied homeowner or renter? A fair question; perhaps Hyman will respond.

You then go on with, “How are the average homeowners feeling about all the advice in his column about how solid home prices were on the Coastside? How do the people being foreclosed on feel? How do the Sheriffs deputies feel about putting people out on the street? How do you feel about your bank failing? How do you feel about having to spend your tax dollars to reinforce banks that bought the toxic mortgages to fuel Mr. Hyman's business? How so you feel about having to spend tax dollar to stimulate other business that can't sustain the losses caused by the real estate value collapse? Do you really think you and your other family members will survive the next couple of years financaily? How do you feel about an economy that is so warped by the lobbying of Mr. Hyman's industry, that it will likely take a decade to restructure?” Wow, is all I can say. Wow.

I can’t & won’t speak for Hyman. What I can speak to, however, is my take on this. When we look around at all the injustices in the world, and there are too many to count, let alone list, certainly this represents one facet of a major theme of injustice – the imposition of will by one party over another. It’s merely degree of imposition that separates this incident from Beachwood, or all the other issues you raise (which I agree are significant issues). Is this the end of the world? No, I doubt that; but we can really only deal with what we have some measure of control over, and stand up to those we feel are wrongfully imposing their will on us and our lives, one at a time, on a case by case basis. At some point, we have to, and I believe that’s what Hyman’s doing. I could be wrong, but that’s how I see it.


Margret you apparently imagine that only rich people own homes or care about property rights. You could not be more wrong. The problems that Steven Hyman has addressed on this thread are large and small. For every Keenan who had the resources to demand his rights in court there are plenty of less well off people who did not have the resources to take on an arrogant, belligerent government controlled by a narrow faction on a mission to stop any development here.

Perhaps if you had sat through the many Planning Commission meetings where people were told that they could not add a bedroom and bath to their house to accommodate a growing family, or heard the deliberations of the no-growth faction controlled Planning Commission around how Kehoe ditch, which was classified as riparian by this cabal, was now so close to existing homes that they could not be repaired, expanded or even allowed to repair backyard fences that were being undermined by seasonal flooding in this ditch; perhaps then you might have a different perspective on these issues. If you had followed the five year saga of appeals and requests to obtain a building permit that Mike Fahey, someone who lost both his job and pension after giving years of devoted service to a major airline, was forced to endure to replace a small second floor deck on his house after he discovered it had both dry rot and termite damage, you might have a different view of the abuses Hyman is talking about.

Property rights guaranteed by the US Constitution are fundamental to our way of life and national character. Americans as Alexis de Tocqueville noted are fiercely independent. The foundation of that independence is the Bill of Rights. Sure, there are limits to free speech or what you can do with your property, but seeing those limits interpreted to mean that someone cannot repair a backyard fence, repair a damaged deck, or have a bush in their side yard more than 48 inches tall is not what most people imagine when they think about reasonable limits on the use of property.

It is those very excesses of power that Steven Hyman is talking about. The ignorant view that you have the right to go onto someone's property and take down a sign or remove something of value without permission is simply wrong. The idea that by rezoning property and classifying it as substandard, you can prevent someone from repairing their house is wrong. These are not issues for the fat cats you imagine, they are issues that effect you and your neighbors. Perhaps you are happy to have others tell you how to live, but if you are, you are a rare person indeed.


The Wall Street Journal article below explains clearly how the real estate industry is largely responsible for the current foreclosure crisis. It is particularly relevant to Half Moon Bay with its large Hispanic population.

Rather than complaining about someone knocking down his illegal permanent sign, Hyman should be contemplating his own role in helping to promote the biggest housing debacle in history.

"Housing Push for Hispanics Spawns Wave of Foreclosures"

---> Web Link


George wrote:

"Margaret, you sure seem very angry."

It's "Margret" not "Margaret"

Please, respond to what I wrote. Not, how you think I feel.

I don't see Bernie Matoff strolling the streets of Manhattan, dining out and socializing. But, we have Mr. Hyman busy doing business as usual, guerrilla marketing his listings and lobbying for the "next Beachwood". I can anticipate the push back from this statement, already. How is inflating a non sustainable bubble morally different from running a Ponzi scam? Both perpetrators have to know that innocent people are going to hurt. Both know there will be a day of reckoning and the longer they can delay it, the better off they will be personally. Both know each day they do this, they are sucking in more victims. Both know someone else is going to have to pick up the pieces. I'm asking a moral question, not a legal question.

People haven't seen the bottom yet. No one has a plan to say who gets saved, who gets sacrificed or who has to pay. No one has a structure to redo regulations. But, people are starting to talk about "claw backs". It may gain some traction and Mr. Hyman and all his fellow Realtors would be required to pay back restitution based on a percentage of their previous commissions.

So, rather than Mr. Hyman being concerned for others, showing some reserve, we have Mr. Hyman humping his version of the American dream completely oblivious to how others feel about his actions in these turbulent times.


Jim Larimer,

I just don't buy your arguments that the average homeowner is somehow being swept into justice on Mr. Keenan's coat tails. I don't have any direct experience with HMB Planning and Building. But, I do know the adage that, "The building inspector is always right." There are abuses everywhere. Just as there are "Property rights guaranteed by the US Constitution are fundamental to our way of life and national character." there is corruption to some degree, inappropriate government influence and arbitrary civil servants, everywhere. If you think Mr. Keenan has done some virtuous action for the rest of us, you are just deluded. He took care of himself and screwed everyone else in HMB and the Coastside.


Maybe Mr.Hyman just borrow the big red, white and blue balloon from the other guys, park it over the property, and lower a sign down from that?


Steve: seems like a good opportunity for putting that Green Bus back to use, no? Everyone remember how hard it was to move that thing???


The lack of substance in the two replies above is just incredible. The anger and hatred in these posts is not palatable.

Margret makes a ridiculous comparison equating Steven Hyman with Bernie Matoff. Baloney!

She goes on to describes the real estate business with terms: guerrilla marketing, Ponzi scam, perpetrators, humping. She says she is, ". . . asking a moral question, not a legal question." We can only wonder if Margret has a clue about either.

Imoan says Hyman should not complain about "someone knocking down his illegal permanent sign". In this statement he makes himself the judge of what is legal and illegal, wrong again, and worse supports vandalism. Adding to his strange logic, he sees ethnic Hispanic Americans buying houses as a cause of the financial crisis our economy is experiencing. Rubbish! It is just not that simple.

The hyperbole and excesses of these two commentators speak for themselves. Their sense of moral guide posts lead to a swamp. Equating people who sell services for a living as grubby crooks is silly.


Margret you really do not understand anything if you believe that Keenan obtaining justice in a Federal Court "screwed" everyone in Half Moon Bay. The people who "screwed" (to use your phrase) Half Moon Bay are the ones who tried to steal property without paying for it. That would be the no-growth faction that once controlled the City. They got caught.

Your lack of empathy for the plight of ordinary people living in Half Moon Bay who were prevented from making home repairs is sad. Is your adage, "The building inspector is always right." a recently discovered 11th commandment? The problem in Half Moon Bay was not the building inspector, it was the new rules and overreaching interpretations of how they ought to be applied.


I meant no harm with the spelling of your name. Looks like you took offense; none intended.

I’m not going to get into a back and forth with you, MargRET (Got it right this time). I stand comfortably with my comments to you, in all aspects. Frankly, with the tone you exhibit, I don’t care (now) how you feel. I also notice that you’ve had a change of address since your first post 4 hours ago. Was that just a slip of the finger, or are you confused about that, too?

I find your comments, now that you’ve made yourself even clearer, as offensive. The relationships you attempt to create are beyond bizarre. They speak volumes; therefore no further response to them from me is necessary, or warranted.

I hope things get better for you, and soon. Have a good day.


Jim Larimer,

I'm amazed at the gall with which you twist what people have written and throw it back at them with total condescension. You demonstrate a lack of intellectual capacity to respond to what is written and hide behind toying with people. Anyone with junior high school comprehension can see that.

George wrote:

"Was that just a slip of the finger, or are you confused about that, too?"

Slip of the finger, sexist.


Everyone take a deep breath. Try to stay on the topic and not simply snipe at one another.


Margaret, I appreciate your sincere comments although I think you place way too much of the worlds economic and social problems at my feet.

I have nothing to do with companies like GM needing bailouts or designing bad products for decades. I'm also not the one to blame for banks making questionable loans. They set the criteria under what conditions they will lend money. If their loan programs work for my clients, I will inform them. There must be hundreds of different programs to choose from. I'm also not people's mother where I tell them how to budget their money or if they quit their job to have kids.

The foreclosure situation is sad but many of these properties, especially here on the Coast, were purchased with 100% financing so the owners aren't losing much if any money. Quite different than the recession in the 90's when people actually had down payments.

While several homes I've sold over the past few years have ended up as short sales, I represented the seller so my obligation was only to the seller. In all these cases, I didn't meet the buyer except perhaps in just the most general terms. What their situation wasn't my concern because I didn't represent them. It also would be unethical for me to have lengthy conversations with other people.

In the past few years, I only did 1 100% financed loan and that was to a Doctor who got a $1 million mortgage and had a huge salary.

But you are wrong on many points, too much to list. While you mentioned that there are renters, someone owns that house. Also, the City should have solved the Beachwood mess 10-15 years ago instead of taking the arrogant costly position they did wasting millions on lawyers to end up owing more.

This community is very divided on what was the best course of action-settle versus appeal. Here there seems to be no common ground. Everybody is on one side of the fence.

I talk about things I can have an impact on and leave the rest to others. I have observed that the small property owner here has taken it in the shorts for a long time and no one seems to care. As I and others have pointed out here and in previous posts, great injustices have been done to the residents here both in the City and the County over the past 20 years with all sort of zoning changes. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that these were done with good intensions but some were horribly executed. A few were outright punitive.

The Big Boys don't ask my advice, they hire big gun lawyers and bury the City with expensive legal moves. They can take care of themselves. In fact, here the City is in over its head because these guys have millions of dollars on the line and much deeper pockets than little HMB. The mess we are in was obvious to many people years ago, yet the City foolishly kept pursuing a fatal policy. Now we are paying for it.

The issue I raised here is that someone wants to sell their property and some locals don't want his property sold so they knock down the sign. This really isn't any different than the Save Our View crowd across from the Burnham Strip, who want to preserve the open space that someone owns without paying for it. Its just the same old fight in another location.

It seems like we will never see eye to eye but just remember that's there's more than one side to a story. I'm just trying to help people buy and sell real estate. The fact that most of my clients are repeat customers tells me I'm doing a pretty good job for them.


This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I used to think that people who disagreed on land policy on the coast were generally open-minded and pursuing a workable and fair solution to problems. I now see that there is a mean-spiritedness and vindictiveness that I never realized was so entrenched, and I direct this most strongly to Steven.


Hyman has bailed before on any responsibility for taking part in real estate deals with financing that is shaky. You will never get anything but the usual recital of property rights dogma from him, George, Larimer, et al., Margret. Don't worry. Plenty of us can see they have avoided addressing the heart of your statements, as if overwhelming you with the expected rhetoric will drown out your points.


Steven Hyman,

Your comments like this whole topic are self serving. By your own admission, you had houses you sold wind up in short sales. Yet, you claim your hands are clean. Maybe from criminal or civil action as the law stands, now. But, that behavior multiplies by just about every Realtor in this country is what caused our current economic crisis. For you, it's business as usual, churn'em and burn 'em. You don't make the rules. Why should you care? I only hope the next administration has the teeth to claw back those commissions and enact tough laws that make your way of doing business against the law.

Your assertion that what's good for Mr. Keenan is good for the little guy is just a bankrupt trickle down ideology. In HMB the little guy's are going to lose $18M worth of services from The City to pay Mr. Keenan. The property rightists think this financial hardship will teach the little guys to elect officials that respect property rightists. Even with property rightist elected officials, Mr. Keenan and people like him will always be in the front of the line to benefit. The little guy will just get screwed, again. Sorry, the middle class is picking up the tab and they aren't swallowing any more voodoo economics, unfettered free markets, property rights over people's rights or working hard for the rich will translate into rewards for average folks.

Your claims about caring about the little guy are just pandering to potential customers.

Short term, people want emotional vengeance. Any scapegoat will do. If you had any sense, you'd be maintaining a low profile, dining in like Barney Madoff, instead of making a public spectacle of your whining about your signs.


astounded,

I totally agree with everything you said until you got to your last word.

Steven is not the problem. Show me another community other than HMB and midcoast where so many "vocal locals" feel that real estate agents are bad and full of "mean-spiritedness and vindictiveness". Where do these attacks end? how about auto mechanics, city staffers, painters of homes, store owners, teachers, etc. many of them also own land or homes or cars (also a form of property). astounded, have you ever owned or sold a car?

Would it be your land "use" policy that people own land, pay taxes in perpetuity, and then die and the land goes to their heirs which, according to you, must do the same as their parents. and the same for their home I suppose.


Back Atcha...Sorry I didn't understand your response. It seems to have nothing to do with my expression of dismay at the way people are treating each other and the lack of willingness to see each other's point of view.


astounded,

I think people are very frustrated about a host of problems along our coast. Much of the frustration is tied to land use policies, local coastal programs, litigation, habitats, and the economic meltdown is doing nothing to lessen the angst. Maybe a major problem with this topic lies in flawed communication skills. Respect for other fellow citizens and their rights has, in my opinion, a poor track record along our coast, hence tempers flare. I have been on both sides. On this issue I side with Mr Hyman. Please go back and re-read the dozen instances Steven describes land "use" policies gone awry just for this one specific parcel.


Astounded, One of the things that has surprised me about this charming sleepy little town is that the politics here are truly hardball. For as long as I've had the privilege of writing for the Review, every time I write about property rights issues I get blasted. When I wrote about HMB going bankrupt 7-8 years ago, I got hate mail and weeks of complaints in the open-line section with the response being we will fight developers till we are broke.

People come to me to sell their property. When I do my due diligence by checking out the zoning, sometimes I am stunned by what I see. Many times the owner says they were never notified but who can prove that.

What frustrates me a lot is that so many projects take years to complete. There is 10,15,20 year battles over schools, Boys & Girls Club, and even replacing an old water line. The most recent abuse was the 6 year battle for someone trying to build an 1800 sqft home on an infill lot. And the topper was the torching of the Beach House Hotel around 7-10 years ago.

Many people who live here but work elsewhere are unaware of all the infighting. But as you can see from this thread, part of which is sarcasim on my part, there are a lot of angry people here. Regardless of how Beachwood plays out, this fighting will go on.

These attacks don't bother me at all. In fact, I kind of enjoy it. Otherwise I wouldn't have done this for over 12 years now.


Margret, I help people buy and sell real estate, homes, land, condos, etc. Sometimes I work for the seller and other times I work for the buyer. If I'm helping a seller, my only obligation is to sell their home. I know little about the buyer, their needs, hopes etc. But on the other hand if I'm helping a buyer get into a home, I spend a lot of time helping them get the best financing I can based on their needs, credit, income and long term plans.

Also understand that its not me who makes the loan or sets the standards, terms. The bank does. Its there money. Nor is it my job to make sure people keep paying their mortgage. I know they can make the payments when they buy. What they do with their lives a few years later is beyond my control. I don't recall ever doing one of these balloon type loans.

I also don't churn and burn my clients as you suggest. I keep in touch with them all the time. I just sold a home 2 months ago and it was my 5th transaction with this family and their friends. The home I sold I sold them 10 years ago. They came back to me because of my caring about them over the years.

Perhaps you misunderstood me about Mr. Keenan, whom I've never met or spoken 1 word to ever. He doesn't need my advice. He's got sharp lawyers working for them and they have served him well. I don't know if it really matters who is running this place because the devisive infighting between the pro-growth and anti-growth will go on and on. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground so the residents will be the big losers as this drags on and more money is wasted on endless lawsuits.

And I see absolutely no reason for me to crawl into a hole and hide till things get better. I like what I do and am proud of the excellent service I give my clients. I'm also not going to back down from some little eco-terrorist wantabe who is undermining my clients right to sell his property. You've heard from the owner and he's really pleased how aggressive I'm being in helping him.

Hope that clarifies a few things better for you.


Margaret,

I don't believe that Realtors are wholly to blame for the sub-prime meltdown. Lack of regulatory oversight of the financial/lending industry is at least partly to blame.

On another note, I agree with you i.e. that most people in HMB do not benefit from the skewed outcome of the Beachwood decision. This issue of "takings" and its relationship to property rights and the U.S. Constitution is only of interest to a relatively small group within our community. Because of the failure of our City Council to appeal the Beachwood judgement, we are saddled with the possibility of bankruptcy or long-term debt.

It is mind boggling to me that an elected official such as Mr. Larimer would promote the virtues of the Keenan judgement at the expense of the city and individual community members. The principles at stake here are important, I'll grant him that, but the notion that we should award the individual (Keenan) at the expense of the community is morally bankrupt.

Mr. Larimer, you owe the community an explanation. Whose side are you on?


Let Keenan build his 19 houses and we can all get on with our lives..


margaret you np and osm are right on.


Larimer is, as always has been, on the side of the developer. His vision of paradise is a series of sprawling subdivisions aligned in geometric order along Highway 1.

---> Web Link


"I don't believe that Realtors are wholly to blame for the sub-prime meltdown. Lack of regulatory oversight of the financial/lending industry is at least partly to blame."

Agreed. In fact, they sometimes look like dupes compared to some of the players at the big financial institutions involved. But they are not Mr. Hyman's feigned choir boys, either, and were the direct contacts, along with mortgage "arrangers," with the unqualified buyers (another partially culpable group) that are at the foundation level of the crumbling mess.

Margret does a better job than any of us regulars at calling forth the real human pain and life disruption that are often sublimated as we banter about an ongoing national financial meltdown in petty philosophical terms. The locals who trivialize the term "terrorism" by slathering it around carelessly and inappropriately are at a loss to answer her directly and merely resort to their usual blur of self-justification. I wouldn't like to face her in a game, because she knows how to concentrate on the real situation and not take her eye off the ball. How great would it be if she became incensed enough with the poppycock and ran for a local governmental position?


I am not a bit worried that most people in this community understand whose side I am on. I favor letting people expand their homes to accommodate a growing family as long as the expansion is consistent with rational zoning laws.

I am on the side of homeowners who take down a termite ridden deck expecting to replace it only to discover that the a special interest political faction has changed the zoning on their property so they cannot replace the deck. I believe zoning changes that mean you cannot replace the house you are living in with its equivalent should you lose it to a fire or to decay are wrong.

People should be allowed to repair their decks, and homes without being told the rules have changed and now the deck is not allowed or that they must now make their house smaller because the zoning has changed. Reducing the value of someone's property by rezoning it is almost always unfair to the homeowner.

The people who live alongside of the Kehoe Ditch should be allowed to repair their backyard fences and the damage done to their homes by the water saturated ground that results because the City is not maintaining this ditch.

A solution for the Kehoe Ditch would be to put a pipe in it and bury the pipe. That would eliminate an open and dangerous storm sewer that threatens homes and people. It was madness and mean spirited for the no-growth City Council to claim this storm sewer is a natural creek making normal maintenance impossible.

As far as defending Mr. Keenan, I have never done that. What I have done is read all of the court ruling on the Beachwppd case including the State Appellate ruling which played a role in the Federal Court decision.

The State Court did not bless the City's interpretation of a wetland, it said the City as a legislative body has the right to interpret a wetland any way they like. It is up to the Half Moon Bay voters to decide if the interpretation was reasonable. The voters have voted this cabal out of power, now the new City Council needs to fix the interpretation.

The Federal judge's verdict was that the City was at fault not Keenan. You don't have to be on Keenan's side to agree with the ruling. Justice does not require that any of us support the harmed party, but it does require that we respect the Court and its decisions. If a sports team wins a game, it is absurd to believe that in order to appreciate the fact that they won you must be a fan.

It is regrettable that the City was led by a special interest faction that had so little respect for the rights of others that it has come to this. Blaming the victim for the crime because the punishment given to the perpetrator is harsh makes no sense at all. Would the actions of the City be less wrong if the punishment were smaller? Most people I know do not have a moral calculus based on dollars, they base their values on principles of right and wrong.

What is required of the current City Council now is to find a way out of the mess. One obvious way to do that is to acknowledge what is well documented in the Federal Court record that the City flooded the property. Fixing the storm sewer would end the flooding. Ending the flooding would end the issue of whether or not the property is a wetland.

I got involved in local community politics to build a new middle school. That was before my second daughter was born. My older daughter is in college, and my younger one is a sophomore at HMBHS and we never built a new middle school. I was encouraged to run for the Water District Board of Directors by friends who were dismayed, as I was, when the no-growth faction took control of the water district and stopped all pipeline renewal and maintenance projects. Today, 8 years later we have replaced three aging pipelines any one of which could have had catastrophic consequences for the community had they failed.

I believe we owe our children and the next generation who will live here that we have done a good job of maintaining essential infrastructure, that we have planned adequately for the future, and that we have done all of that at a minimal cost to people living here now. I have been very fortunate to work with a set of colleagues at the Water District who are as committed to open, transparent and responsible government as I am. Thanks to their efforts and my small contributions too, this community is better off and safer today than it was in 2001 when I was first honored by the voters and elected to the water district Board.

The answer to the question, Whose side am I on?, is simple. I am on the side of treating people fairly, according to the law. Government should be open, transparent and accountable. I am on the side of good government and the people who live here or own property here. People make a community and these are the people who make our community. I am on their side. Most of the people I have met while living here are on this side too.


By stubbornly cheerleading for the Wavecrest middle school, which came attached to a 220 hoiuse subdivision to be built on top of wetlands and sensitive habitat, Larimer helped squander years of time and millions of dollars in escalated construction costs.

THat kind of action does nothing to help the community but only shows that he favors development regardless of the true costs.


By the owners of adding the school and the Boys and Girls Club as well as the other goodies to the N Wavecrest project, they attempted to make it more acceptable. This was another one of those 10-15 year battles with so much taxpayer money spent on litigation, etc.

These multi-year battles are really angering people because things don't get done here, unless you are a lawyer. I don't have a problem with POST buying this property. I do question what the residents get out of the deal. We spent untold millions of dollars fighting it and won't have anything to show for it. No permit fees, no use of the land, and no additional spending by the new residents. We have even lost property tax revenue. Good for POST, good for the property owners, bad for HMB.

Interestingly now that POST owns this property, they are keeping their land beautifully disced. They do leave the few small patches of wetland mounds alone. When you see how small these wetland patches are, you have to ask if it was really worth all this expensive fuss. Our kids certainly suffered.


Steven,

You claim to be a real estate genius. But, you deliberately miss the whole game of big project development on the Coastside: EXTORTION. Heres how it works: Buy a property with problems that is not capable of full density. Put plans in with full density housing, throw in some goodies(as you call them), get other pro growth entities to associate, hire consultants and lawyers and battle away for a decade or so. Then claim it is worth the value of the full density to POST or a City or a County or a neighbor that want to buy the parcel to preserve a view or open space.

But, as you know all to well, but won't admit, the same extortion tactic works just fine with a single family home. Hire architects and lawyers, max out the floor area ratio, hang tough and eventually you will get most of what you want. Just happened in HMB. With all the pro growth property rights wackos patting themselves on the back that some poor family victims were finally given justice by the Coastal Commision.

This is all about maximizing developed real estate value, which equates to higher commissions for you. Just more slimy real estate spin. A large percentage of the residents of the Coastside are only developing more understanding for the motivations of the perpetrators of your sign vandalism. Take the hints from some of the residents that have spoken here.


The opportunity for a new middle school has been squandered. There were several other locations that where considered to build the school, but the usual suspects, the no-growth faction, had a problem with every site. They said they wanted a school, that a proper location was all that was lacking, but they were activists in making sure every possible site was unacceptable.

The Wavecreat site came with many pluses. The Plumbers Union's Retirement fund which owned the property was willing to donate 130 acres of bluff top at the ocean's edge as permanent open space. They sold land for the school at a discount well below its market value. They donated the land for the Boys and Cirls Club, they agreed to expand and improve Smith Fields and donate the land and fields permanently to the community. They agreed to build and reserve moderately priced housing for teachers and city employees. And finally, they would build the water, sewer and road infrastructure that would serve the school, Boys and Girls Club, and Smith Field.

Compare that to the other development deals that have been made in recent years in this community. The developer who will build the luxury homes, the Ailanto Development, north of the High School will not build a new road giving access to this property, instead he plans on using Terrace Ave without improving it. His only contribution to the community at large is a $2,000,000 contribution to the City that would not even pay for a new stop light on Hwy 1. When the property is subdivided and the streets constructed the 63 lots alone will be worth at least $30,000,000, a handsome profit .

Compare Ailanto in terms of the benefits that will accrue to the community, the problems that will be solved, by this development compared to what the Plumbers Union was willing to do for this community at Wavecrest. The Ailanto development will be all large expensive homes, there will be no moderate priced houses for teachers or city employees.

My opposition to the Ailanto deal as it is defined today is well known. I have not hidden my concerns from the public, the developer or members of the current or former City Council. I have spoken out in support of the people who live on Terrace Ave who oppose this plan. I have had my suggestions with regard to road improvements associated with this development abruptly dismissed by agents of the developer who came to me for support. When I raised these problems and suggestions with the developer, primarily new roads that where part of the planned community developed defined more than 40 years ago, they not surprisingly told me they would oppose me for expecting more from them.

The Plumbers Union Retirement fund through its agent Ocean Colony Partners made substantial campaign contributions to the no-growth faction prior to the last contested election in the Community where the voters finally changed the balance of power. The candidates they favored, Mike Ferriria for example, lost. But this cabal of no-growth extremists did deliver a deal for the Union that allowed them to stop their losses on the Wavecrest Property by selling it to POST. I would not be surprised to find the Ailanto Developer offering campaign financing support to Imoan or Now Pitching if either of them will look the other way as the sweetheart deal Ailanto has struck with the City and their friends at the Coastal Commission is finalized.

I do not oppose the idea that the Ailanto property has a right to be developed. What I want back from Ailanto as his contribution to the community is for him to improve the roadways that will serve his development and to lesson the traffic congestion that exists and will be increased if the current plan is built.

Developers have a right to a fair profit for the risks and effort they shoulder in building the homes we live in, but that does not mean that when large profits are possible that they do not have to contribute any of those profits to the community through voluntary community improvements. The conditions of the deal should be negotiated openly with the developer and our community's elected representatives. Back-room deals, a favorite ploy of the no-growth cabal, ought to be opposed loudly by all of us.

Property owners who own properties that have been zoned for residential development whether it is a tract or an infill lot have a Constitutional right to realize the value of their property, which means to develop it. Whether it is a family with a single buildable lot and a dream to live on the coast or a developer like Keenan, the US Constitution does not make a distinction.

There is not one set of laws for people with a moderate income and a second, more favorable set for rich people. Some of the people who have posted in this debate like Imoan or Now Pitching appear to believe that the law should be crafted to the individual. That would be favoritism whether it favors the individual or harms him. I am certain most people would believe that such special treatment would be wrong.


First, I can't ever recall stating I'm a genius. I know a lot but certainly not everything. I'm always learning as things constantly change.

I think we've got 2 separate issues here, the big guys and the little guys. The big developers have very deep pockets and millions of dollars of profit on the line. They can afford to grind this out for years as our little town with little budget bleeds to death from the legal expenditures. Their high powered attorneys select the best issues for the property and tough it out. Some settle and some don't.

The little property owners here are a different matter. Most can't afford years of lawyers to develop their property. I think the abuse the people had to endure on Terrace Ave was one of the worst cases of abuse I've seen. The little home on 3 acres was another case of a system run amuck. Most people can't afford to fight City Hall so they just take it. That's not right and something needs to be done to fix it so this doesn't keep happening.

What the CC did a few weeks ago was a good first step in righting the wrongs from the past.

I started this post to bring attention to the continual abuse property owners are subjected to. As everyone can see from the large number of responses, it shows how divided and angry we are and will be for some time to come. And so because people don't like realtors, or me or land sales is not justification for vandalism and trespassing. Although you seem to think so. Very sad.


Steve Hyman,

I wrote:

"A large percentage of the residents of the Coastside are only developing more understanding for the motivations of the perpetrators of your sign vandalism."

You wrote:

"And so because people don't like realtors, or me or land sales is not justification for vandalism and trespassing. Although you seem to think so. Very sad."

Very sad indeed. You misrepresent what people write. For you it's all about being right, winning the argument, indoctrinating the voters and potential customers with your propaganda and ultimately getting that commission.

There is no reason to continue this discussion.


Mr. Larimar can't make a comment on anything without saying the "no growthers" blocked the new middle school.

May I remind him (yet again) there were many parents who did not want the new middle school at Wavecrest due to the location? Many, many coastsiders felt the middle of town (Cunha) was the appropriate location for pre-teens starting to flex their independence. And, didn't the school district spend a large sum of money for a commission which came back with the same recommendation that we parents had been making for some time -- that the middle school was best located in its current location at Cunha?


I think the $35 Million bond for the school improvement was available in 1995, and no final decision was reached for Cunha until 2006. What troubles me most is that our community is so divisive that we cannot agree on much of anything, including our kids and our future, much less on frogs, realtors, Beachwood, uprooted sale signs, etc, etc. And another thing, it seems that all sides of any discussion try to use a bit of intimidation. Some say that is what Mr Hyman did when he chose the word "eco-terrorism". I am not in that camp. If Judge Judy were to decide about the uprooted sign, it is apparent that she would follow the law, but insist that the "guilty" would have to be seen in a court of law. I ramble a bit, but I had to say something.


regarding the middle school site, which is now ancient history....I recall that the "slow growth" people were happy with either the downtown or original El Granada site.


Realtors are successful? In what ways? Some are "successful" by some measures in some ways; but to lump them together is to do the good ones a disservice by indicating they are the same as the ones blind to quality-of-life and quality-of-community matters or the ones just humping for attention and self-promotion on message boards like this.

Look up what constitute the requirements to call onself a "realtor." That term is the common denominator for these people, and it has nothing to do with "success" of a personal or financial nature.


Here are the requirements mentioned above:

All real estate licensees are not the same. Only real estate licensees who are members of the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS® are properly called REALTORS®.

Here's the source: Web Link


If only there were a NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF VIOLINISTS around here so we could get a VIOLINIST to play as Larimer's repetitious self-justifications roll on down the message board.


I must protest the pervasive use of the word "humping" in various contexts in this thread. Ladies and gentlemen of quality do not use the expression "humping" in mixed company. And they do not refer to "taking it in the shorts" in any kind of company.

Shocking, simply shocking!


Try to hijack this topic at your own peril. This topic will go on. You Will be called out for scurrilous behaviour. This topic is, and must, be about signs, and their demise in untoward circumstances beyond the Law.

Pay attention, puh......leese.

So, here is the question----"Its only a lousy for sale sign but it speaks volumes to how low some groups will go to trample people's rights. What do you think?"


Back On Topic writes:

"'Its only a lousy for sale sign but it speaks volumes to how low some groups will go to trample people's rights. What do you think?'"

Disagree. The "volume" of one sack of cement is about half a cubic foot. The hole for the sign was obviously not "low" enough. No "groups" except for the wind have claimed responsibility. Realtors with fallen signs wrapping themselves in false victimhood using hyperbole "trample people's rights."


On topic,

My recent quote, as you know, is the lead question for this topic, from Over five days ago. I am merely trying to stay on topic.

If you choose to talk about the volume of the concrete and how "low" it was, and false victimhood that is what it is. That is all that Mr Hyman was seeking, opinions from the community. That is your opinion.

My opinion is that we should simply follow the law. The owner of the parcel has a right to sell it, Mr Hyman has a right to be the seller's agent, and the person or persons tearing down the sign does NOT have any rights to do so. Can we agree on that simple stipulation, Mr On Topic?


Back On topic wrote:

" I am merely trying to stay on topic."

After 180 posts all over the map, what a noble enterprise.

"That is all that Mr Hyman was seeking, opinions from the community. That is your opinion."

No. My opinion was: "Realtors with fallen signs wrapping themselves in false victimhood using hyperbole "trample people's rights."

Please, don't misrepresent what I wrote.

"My opinion is that we should simply follow the law."

Agree.

"The owner of the parcel has a right to sell it, Mr Hyman has a right to be the seller's agent,"

Agree.

"and the person or persons tearing down the sign does NOT have any rights to do so."

No one has proven any person or group has torn down Mr. Hyman's sign. If a person or group did tear down his sign, it was vandalism(California Penal Code Section 594), not eco-terroism as Mr. Hyman asserts.

"Can we agree on that simple stipulation, Mr On Topic?"

No. (see above)


"So, here is the question----'Its only a lousy for sale sign but it speaks volumes to how low some groups will go to trample people's rights. What do you think?'"

The quote is as badly composed, and senseless, now as when it was first posted. Mr. Hyman has no clue whether or not his signs are becoming horizontal because of a group, an individual, or, my favorite possibility so far, the sincere and curious pair of whatevers, Meta and Summa.

Without that clue, all the rest of the conjecture is silliness. Though Hyman probably got more name recognition out of it. From many comments by others, I can't tell if that will be good or bad for his business, but it ain't *all* good.


On Topic,

you state--- "No one has proven any person or group has torn down Mr. Hyman's sign. If a person or group did tear down his sign, it was vandalism(California Penal Code Section 594), not eco-terroism as Mr. Hyman asserts." How in this world do you KNOW that?

When we provide a video, showing people removing the sign, would you concede it was vandalism? Silly me, why ask you, a mere anonymous Talkabouter, we will just go to HMB police....

Mr On Topic, you do know that you have an IP address that is traceable when you post, right?


Back on Topic wrote:

"How in this world do you KNOW that?"

I looked it up:

Web Link

"When we provide a video, showing people removing the sign, would you concede it was vandalism?"

No. When a person is convicted of vandalism of Mr. Hyman's sign, I would concede. That is the way our system of justice works.

"Silly me, why ask you, a mere anonymous Talkabouter, we will just go to HMB police...."

By all means, take your evidence to the HMB Police. I'd much rather have them handling the investigation than you.

"Mr On Topic, you do know that you have an IP address that is traceable when you post, right?"

I haven't broken the law or violated any of this sites terms. It would take a court order to get my IP address.

Good luck Sherlock.


"When we provide a video, showing people removing the sign, would you concede it was vandalism?"

What if the video shows Hyman or one of his cronies pulling out the sign--as good a suggestion as any in the total absence of evidence? Is that vandalism? Is vandalism "eco-terrorism." Words have meaning. Ain't that a shame?

But back to the fantasy of Hyman taking down his own sign for an excuse to kick up a little publicity during a slow time for R.E. sales. What is the greater crime, vandalism, or filing false police reports?

The hijacker moves on...IP address trailing behind.


I knew before I put up this sign that it would get torn down because of the controversial location butting up to open space. I even got dirty looks from one of the neighbors from her window when my friend and I were digging the post hole.

I took what I thought were extreme measures the first time I put it up by digging a very deep post hole. It actually stayed up longer than I thought, a whole 2 weeks. Thats when I decided to pour in a bag of concrete into a deeper hole. It stayed up longer but it still met the same fate.

Whether it was an individual or a group, someone willfully knocked it down twice. What I think we can all agree on is that it wasn't a group of girl scouts leaning against my sign enjoying milk and cookies and taking in the view of the Railroad Ave ROW.

This area is very controversial and a few hundred yards from the bluffs. That also explains why the former city council went to the extraordinary efforts of creating a 50 foot wide open space strip to further restrict access to these lots and may even go all the way to the lot on Kelly Avenue.

Look how Beachwood has generated so much anger over an infill parcel near McDonalds. Wait till the drumbeat of development starts here, the cries will be deafening. Of course one big difference will be that we will be broke because we blew all our money fighting Beachwood and paying the large judgment. That will make this battle easier for the property owners because the City won't have millions to spend on lawyers but they will.

Some thing it was a bunch of drunk teenagers stumbling out into the middle of the field over Christmas break in the middle of the night. I think it was someone who doesn't want this area developed which is why I call them eco-terrorists.


And the attention-seeking speculation fest goes on.


You should take all your suspicions/paranoid fantasies about who vandalized your sign, to the police and spare us. This is just shameless self promotion and narcissism.


I did file a police report last week and the incident appeared in the Review yesterday. For some reason the police log link doesn't show this week's incidences so you can probably either see it next week online or look at the actual paper.

You got this all wrong. Its not about me, its about the owner's rights to sell his property being repeadidly thwarted.


I have read you personal histrionic defenses of your customers right to sell their lot and how this is symbolic of some greater property rights issue that you have unique knowledge of. I also see a fair amount of self importance, narcissism and border line paranoia. As the saying goes, you have to be important enough for them to come after you.

My intent here is not to run your business or life. I'm not qualified to do that. I'm just making some observations and common sense suggestions on what I have read here. Let the police handle the investigation. Your plan to put up a stronger sign sounds good. Don't read anything into the neighbors dirty looks. Maybe they are constipated. Keep an eye out on the property. Carry on with your business. Communicate to your customer what you are doing for them. Broadcasting your and your customers problems with this lot on TalkAbout will most likely be seen as self promotion or bad judgment.

But, most importantly, don't play into the vandal's game. By carrying on, in a measured way, you will be doing everything you can to thwart the vandal or vandals with out giving them the reward of knowing they disrupted your life or business.

Good luck. We can always hope the police get a break.


Well, we can always count on the "professorial" Mr. NP to give an English lesson, as he did a few posts back...of course it has nothing to do with the topic...talk about narcissism and self promotion, wow!

Mr. On Topic: "My intent here is not to run your business or your life. I am not qualified to do that." That is obviously true. Let Mr. Hyman do what he does so well. He is standing up for property rights and not for "Eco-Terrorists'" outrageous disrespect for the right of property. It appears that "Eco-Terrorism" = "Enviro-Nazi". Those terms are by far to dignified for what they do.


Haste! Before NP gets a chance, I must correct, "by far TOO dignified".....


As I read comments about eco-terrorism, I feel very sad. However, I do believe that Mr Hyman is doing everything exactly right. He is apparently pursuing a measured, deliberate, and committed response to illegal actions that he anticipated. He is not over reacting, and I think it is worthwhile for Mr Hyman to seek out community response as well through Talkabout. A nice "friendly" anonymous forum so people expressing views need not feel intimidated, and all parties can freely express their views. (Thanks Clay)

It is helpful to read comments from the property owner, (Tony) and hear of Tony's support for the realtor he selected to sell his property in difficult times, and with a situation of conflict along Railroad largely created by the city. Does that not sound familiar. Policies do matter. When some posters blame the realtor for everything, it is enlightening to read comments from the owner of the parcel. This makes me think of the 1600 "sub-standard" lots in HMB, and the grievances that these owners must also have with the city of HMB for making their lots substandard. As I understand it, the lots were standard at time of purchase, or if a house is on the lot the house was built in accord with all ordinances at the time it was built. What changed? Apparently, the rules from the city of HMB. Does the concept of ex post facto not apply to HMB?

This is SAD... and may become much much sadder.


200 SAD posts! All about 1 post.lol lol lol only in HMB!


I knew when I wrote this, which was actually in the back of my mind before I even posted the sign, it would arouse a lot of debate. I'm pleased that it got so many responses.

I also know this won't change anyones opinion because the different groups here are so deeply entrenched in their views that we will never find common ground. I do hope I've educated some people about another area that has slipped under the radar because of more immediate and pressing issues. But its still here.

And like one poster said 100 comments ago I saying this because I just want to be the 200th comment.


Wow. OSM, you beat me! I really wanted to be the 200th poster. I guess I'll try for the 300th.


Iv got to hand it to you

A great publicity stunt during the slow months

What next elephants and a jumping tent?.


The publicity stunt wasn't caused by me. Having written 600+ columns for the Review over the past 12-13 years, I do have a pulse of the community. Anticipating this act was like knowing what your 5 year old will do next. These people are so predictable.

As far as what's next, please wait. You'll be pleased and hopefully amused. You know, you gotta look for the funny things in life. Luckily, there's so much here.


Steven I new the very second I saw your photograph of ' the post'

It was a set up job!

Ya know we (12.000) didn't just fall of the back of the pumpkin truck.


As I said this was so predictable just like anticipating a 5 year old when told no. That's why I bought a 6x6 post to start and dug a deep hole. I was surprised that it actually remained untouched for 2 weeks. But right after I reset it in concrete, the open space people had their walk of the Railroad Ave ROW so all of these people could not help missing it. As I said, this property is directly west of this 50' strip.

I was out of town for that weekend, otherwise I would have loved to have attended. I can imagine what went through these people's minds talking about nature and plants and frogs and then smacking them in the face are the bold gold and black colors of Century 21. These colors are a little garish but boy can you see them from far away, which is way Century 21 designed it. And here it was not even 5 feet away!

When anti-growth people see a For Sale sign next to Open Space its like a bull seeing red.

Anyway it will be interesting to see what happens to this sign and this site. If we are all lucky, it will remain untouched and then there will be no further mention. My money is on further attacks. After all people with a 5 year old mentality are so easy to read, just like a comic book.


Thanks Steven I have won the bet!

The bet I had on that you would eventually plug the name of your real estate company on TA

Masterful how you worked it in to your comment

Talk about predictable you are more predictable than my four year old.


Thanks for the compliment and I'll take it that way. Look how I kept your interest up to where you read 207 comments on TA. I too thought it was clever how I worked the garish colors of my company logo into this. Of course if I didn't mention my company name, some may not know what I was talking about. But anybody who reads the Review knows the company I own cause they end each column by saying it.

But hey, I hope you made a lot on your bet. Maybe you can take me out for lunch with your winnings? I'm a cheap date and funnier in person too.


Steven, even before your latest EGO-Terrorism thread your negative real estate comments have caused a reduction in the lot and home prices on the Coast

I guess we all have to thank the boy that cried WOOLF!

Should all the real estate offices re right their real estate disclosures to reflect Mr Hyman's opinions?

Sorry Pal, In my book there is no such thing as a Free Lunch.

you have cost us plenty.


"Steven, even before your latest EGO-Terrorism thread your negative real estate comments have caused a reduction in the lot and home prices on the Coast" Prove It, please.

"you have cost us plenty." Prove It, please.

OSM, you and a few others talk a lot of smack, but offer no proof and no basis. Your personal attacks don't play well for your position. Do you have any facts at all, let alone regarding people's personal lives?


Again!

Should all the real estate offices re wright their real estate disclosures to reflect Mr Hyman's opinions?


I'm sure Mr. Hyman can backup his claim of 6-7% decline in real estate values. Who believes that? Chop Keenan(by everyone here's admission a sharp real estate cookie) agreed to accept less than 50 cents on the dollar last year for his proposed Beachwood+ home development project. It was such a great deal the majority of our City Council(who have been faithfully reading Mr. Hyman's columns) jumped at it.

These have to be dark times for Realtors: the real estate bubble burst, bad mortgages, 60 trillion in credit default swaps no one will fess up to, banks selling off REO's depressing the market, banks afraid of other banks and customers with a FICO score less than 799, first year of probably the longest recession since the great depression, dead of winter, male prospects parked on the couch watching playoffs. Probably make one consider another profession like evangelical preacher or gun shop owner.

So, what do you do? You fall back on your training. You make lemonade out of the moldy lemons rotting on the lawn and sell it to the neighbors, turn those field of weeds into field of dreams... Conventional advertising is too expensive. Anyone in their right mind is not going to try to develop a lot like this in these times. But, wait guerrilla market to the only people that could see any potential in this lot. The property right wackos? The best way to reach them and appeal to them is TalkAbout. It's their community. Once you got 'em wave the red flag in front of them. They could be the next Chop Keenan! Brilliant!


Again!

"Steven, even before your latest EGO-Terrorism thread your negative real estate comments have caused a reduction in the lot and home prices on the Coast" Prove It, please.

"you have cost us plenty." Prove It, please.

OSM, you and a few others talk a lot of smack, but offer no proof and no basis. Your personal attacks don't play well for your position. Do you have any facts at all, let alone regarding people's personal lives?

You say, "Should all the real estate offices re wright their real estate disclosures to reflect Mr Hyman's opinions?" Is this a serious question seeking an opinion, or are you asking a regulatory question?


Why would real estate offices need to have disclosures on my personal comments? I don't get paid by any organization or company for expressing my views.

A lot of time and effort goes into what I've done for the community but in the end its just free advice I give people both here and in the Review. They can take it or leave it.


wemoan

Did you know there's actually a Russian Professor claiming that the USA will be in a Revolutionary War by 2010? Just google the articlce, it's very interesting reading.


OSM, it is you who have things backwards. I haven't cost us plenty. Its you and your buddies who have pursued this wreckless and incredibly expensive policy of fight everything till your dieing breath.

Back in 2000, I advised people in a piece I wrote in the Review that this fight everything policy could have dire consequences. Had more people heeded my free advice, we wouldn't be in the financial mess we are today owing over $18 million and having squandered untold more millions on legal fees for Beachwood, Pacific Ridge, N Wave crest and who knows what else.

It is you guys who owe this town a HUGE apology for almost destroying our town. Instead your advise is more litigation and file bankruptcy. That's disgraceful.


"It is you guys who owe this town a HUGE apology for almost destroying our town. Instead your advise is more litigation and file bankruptcy." ... Yeah, a sincere apology, in the form of a Cashiers Check, made out to HMB, for $20 mil.

Call the extra $2 mil interest and good faith deposit.

Amen Steve. btw, "...for almost destroying our town." Jury's still out on that one.


WOW talk about a "hot" topic and fascinating to read over the last several days...217 comments before mine. That has got to a record for Talkabout!


Check this out Web Link


So silly. Only 782 comments and 11,182 view in that conversation. It not smart story at Web Link.

We do better than that. You see. We soon get very excellent translation device and then no stopping us!


What can I say, I'm really new to this medium so please excuse my inexperience. The fact that this thread is now #3 on the most heavily commented topics on Talk About shows I've got potential and a hot topic that hits a nerve on both sides.

Give me time. I'm a quick learner and I throw a lot of strikes.


Hyman the truth is

For some reason Clay let you bat with this hmmm ........ 'Fictional' threat

instead of crying fowl

We threw you a bunch of warm up balls

And watched you swing wildly and miss every one

as you cried wolf!

Guess what?

We have your measure

No ones listening to you. any more.

lol (over 50 of the posts in this thread are Hymans) hmmmm Maybe that's a new TA record.

Maybe their is a MVP.TA award?


Typo threat should be thread


Typo threat should be thread


It is you OSM who keeps getting things backwards. Your endless ranting falls on deaf ears. And for good reason. You and your cohorts represent the failed ruinous policies of the past. Don't forget it was for stubborn pursuit of fight till you die litigation that put the City in the $18 million predicament we find ourselves.

When people are so wrong for so long with such horrible results, nobody listens to you. Its like in baseball when the pitcher stinks, you send him to the showers.

You are like the little boy who cried the weeds are coming too many times. You have been relegated to scrap heap of irrelevancy.

You also gotta stop looking in your rear view mirror so much. That's why you keep crashing and causing so much damage.


Imoan says:

"Erecting a permanent structure using 60 pounds of concrete on sensitive habitat consititutes illegal development. I'm glad someone knocked the damn thing down."

Imoan condones breaking the law...because he thinks someone else is breaking the law. So what's the idea, we all be our own judge, jury and executioner?

Can you imagine what HMB would be like if people as antisocial and unprincipled as Imoan were city councilmembers or planning commissioners? What a mess our city would be in?

Wait: we are in that mess, for that very reason.


Hyman, I operate as a loner unlike you I need no pack to run with

My personal desire is to protect peoples individual property rights while at the same time exposing people who would indiscriminately pave over our beautiful coastside

'T'OUT!


I too live here because of the beauty. That doesn't change the fact that you can enjoy the beauty of someone's property by blocking the owners rights to develop it without compensation. If you want to enjoy the beauty in this area, just stick our hand in your pocket and write a check.

Its getting so old how the Save My View Crowd and Weed Whiners cry about this endlessly. Please put your money where your mouth is and everyone will be happy.


Here is what happens when you support your beliefs with money:

Web Link

Seems like the so called "activists" are the ones to jump on the technolgy bandwagon. Those of us who have to work at regular jobs (such as farming, hole digging, working behind a counter running a non-technolgy business) don't have the time, energy or focused intolerance to do such things.


OSM and other Open Space Cadets:

My Hyman is right; if you want open space, pay for it. People have bought a piece of land, paid taxes on it for years, paid weed abatement assessments on the land and then they are arbitrarily denied the right to use the land as they wish...does that seem just to you? Didn't we, at one point, have a war against the British about some similar things? It is horribly easy to make decisions about the property of others when you aren't paying the bill.


I realize the need for open space and don't want to see the area covered by asphalt but justice has to be done at all times, doesn't it? I agree with Wemoan, if we want to keep an area open or park-like we need to pay the owners a fair market price for the land. Oh! Did I hear we don't have the money to do that? Well, if you can't pay, you don't play, that's it.


I like read dese politico things; very funny. My frens and I go to beach to watch girls and walk in dis open space stuff. We think it belong to city, no? Who own dis land? I no want they shoot us. I sorry, mi inglis not so good.


I just noticed that POST (not my sign post) bought some land recently. One of the parcels was over 900 acres that was appraised at $7 million but they got it for $3 million. A while ago POST also bought the 200-300 acres of North Wavecrest for $12 million.

When you look at what raw land is selling for, sure makes the $25 million (and rising) we are into Beachwood for look like a really bad move. And if you listen to the likes of NP and crowd, they would have been thrilled to squander even more money fighting this all the way up to the US Supreme Court.


Steve you keep doing what you're doing. You are fighting for my rights to. Been a big fan for years.


Wemoan & a concerned Democrat

As I said above 3hrs ago

My personal desire is to protect peoples individual property rights

I completely agree with what you both said about these property owners being fairly compensated,

I just like exposing people who would indiscriminately pave over our beautiful coastside to make a fast buck

"Hmmmmmission accomplished"


I'm in the service business and I help people buy and sell homes and land. I do this because I find it interesting and creative and I meet a lot of interesting people.

Getting paid for doing a good job is not evil. Unlike other service positions like lawyers, accountants or even barbers, I don't get paid every time someone sets foot in my office.

Just a few minutes ago, someone I was working with for a few months ended up renting instead of buying so all that lost time went down the drain for naught. I'm not complaining but that's how my job goes. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Doesn't seem like a fast buck to me.


you're right acd. as earl butts said a long time ago, you know playa the game, you no makea the rules. no free lunch here either.


"Another Mike" - I am so pleased to see several things: 1. you are "another Mike". 2. There are more and more people who are speaking up with common sense and just concepts. Keep it up!


So, just to be clear, "Steven Hyman" is a real estate salesperson and he has a property to sell?


so,just to be clear NP,it took you reading 238 previous to figure that out.you are 1 sharp cookie.


So, you confirm it? Steven Hyman is trying to sell a property off Railroad Avenue. So we can all understand, what, exactly, clinches that conclusion for you? Something you read here?


Hyman stated in opening paragraphs he was selling a lot next to open space that was attacked 2x.you just figured that out?


This thread just exposes another set of tweakers; posters obsessed with posts -- wooden posts, cyberposts, ripostes. Bet a lot of you also post on the gun thread. It's all the same thing. Watch the carpal tunnel.


Steve, thank you so much for restoring the sign again. Hope that this will be the last time that you have to spend doing this. Respect for our rights is all that we ask. BTW, the frog looks great! Thanks again for your dedication and service.


So, the property owned by Tony is still listed with Hyman and has a new sign on it? Whoop-de-doo! Could there be anything more exciting for HMB?


I do want to personally thank everyone for their comments both pro and con. As you all can see from the MANY comments, Property Rights are a big issue here and won't go away. Sometimes a silly way of highlighting a problem is what's needed in getting the public's attention.

What I'm most pleased about is that this post (not POST) has become the #2 most heavily commented post on Talkabout in 8 short days.

To keep things fresh, I've started a new post "ECO-TERRORISM ON THE COAST-PART 2". What I really hope happens is that this spurs some action. I think the new angle here is funny. Hope you do too. Thanks again.


Where else can you promote your real estate business for free, but The HMB Review? Perfect example of the editorial bias at the HMB Review. The topic is drawing a lot of attention, because it's not every day you see a local Realtor self destruct and take his colleagues with him.


If you are worried about land being taken by regulations be sure and go to Web Link for what other states are doing.


"Whoop-de-doo"...one of the more intelligible utterances coming from the depths of the illustrious NP. I would wager that those in the know would assume that the initials on the red-legged frog are a reference for the illustrious one but, sadly, I guess not. Sorry NP.


So, everyone is in agreement? Hyman has a lot for sale on Railroad Avenue? Maybe one of the land-loving property rightists will buy it and relieve his commission-drought angst. If he does have a lot for sale, that is. I think he does. Nothing else in this thread adds up to anything.


Tony,

When you post here I am so happy. It takes courage to stand up. If you do not stand for something, you will fall for anything.

Keep up your support for Your property rights. Do not go quietly into that dark night.

Steve knows some of the many, many people that have been wronged by the city of HMB and the county of San Mateo regarding their property rights. Stay in touch. People think Beachwood was the battle, but This battle is just beginning.


Tony? Oh yeah, isn't that the guy who has the lot listed with Hyman. That would be the Hyman who seems to be promoting a lot for sale on Railroad Avenue in HMB with this thread. Have I got this right?

Long live those who list and try to sell lots. If that is what this is about. Must be. That and the commission someone gets. None of the rest of it makes a bit of sense.


Hi "thanks tony", really appreciate your support!! I want to do what is good for everyone but also for myself! I love the coast and want to remain here. My best to you.


Robert the CA,

Are you familiar with Mr. Hyman? Is he trying to sell a lot on Railroad Ave. in HMB? Please don't just guess and cause this thread to make any less sense. Just give your proof.

One other thing occurs to me. Are you trying to help Mr. Hyman sell the lot, if he is trying to sell a lot? On Railroad Avenue. In Half Moon Bay. Will you get a cut of the commission? For selling the hypothetical lot? On Railroad Avenue. In Half Moon Bay. Listed with Hyman by Tony. Maybe.


Like I said in Part II, the disdainful way NP talks about Steve you would think Mr Hyman was a lawyer or something.

(Little does NP know, but I live in his backyard...)


I challenge Hyman to not post on Talkabout for a week (no fair using other names). That could break his addiction to this paranoid posting. Seriously.


Resident--

You are so funny!

First of all, why don't YOU do as you are asking of Steve!

He he. No fair using other names?

I betcha you and me are using names not our own.

Or maybe I am Resident, trying to stir the pot.

Tee hee.


Or maybe you are Steve looking for attention!


Steve,

The wind rocked one of my For sale signs right out of the soggy hole it was planted in. I did not blame it on terrorists!

-Cid


I too have had to reinforce several for sale signs because of the winter storms. None were a 4x4 post buried in a 2-3 foot hole reinforced with a bag of concrete. This was the 2nd blatant attack. Now with 250 pounds of concrete, my sign is still standing (at least as of Monday) as is NP3 . This speaks poorly to what's needed to sell property in sensitive areas like this.


Cid, that is absolutely impossible. We are in a drought. The media meteorologists tell us that no matter how much rain we get now we are still in a drought.

So it's totally impossible that the ground was soggy enough for your sign to be rocked over.


"This speaks poorly to what's needed to sell property in sensitive areas like this."

As part of your continuing self-promotion, can you give us evidence that you have a clue what it takes to sell a property like this by telling us how the actual sale of Tony's lot is proceeding? Did all the uninformed babble about eco-terrorism prove to be a good technique and produce a buyer?


Hi everyone, I own the lot that Steve Hyman is selling for me. Has anyone noticed that there might be a house built on the "holy land" in El Granada? Yes, the "holy strip - save my view". On my way to Jerusalem (sp?) I stopped to speak with the construction workers and they said that it was "very ugly"? I asked what is so "ugly" they said to me that "we are just workers here" but "...why do people honk there horns and give us the "finger and swear at us as they go by". Are they the people who are so beautiful and want to save "...the frog and our community". My reply was "...just do you work because nothing is making sense now and no one has the right to treat you that way...yes, not even those who want the STRIP to be holy", I said to them, "... I would support their work in any way possible... we must grow and grow in a very careful but reasonable way... just ignore the swearwords, the fingers, the crudeness dispalyed because we are not all that way". They said "...gracios amigo". BTW, they had no idea of my sign on Railroad.


Tony,

You are a man of much patience. It takes someone like you to persevere against the wishes of a whole community, such as the one who wants to see the Burnham design for El Granada maintained on the strip. And you are obviously the right guy for listing his property with Hyman. I hope you are a young man, because from the lack of reported action so far, it is beginning to look like it may take a while to unload that magnet for eco-terrorism on Railroad Avenue.


Tony, you are right. The Save Our View crowd keeps crying the same thing. Don't destroy the beautiful Burnham Strip. We'd love to buy it but we have no money so why doesn't the Harbor District give it to us for free.

Your lot is going to be the same thing. One of these days all the land owners in your PUD are going to organize themselves and get going. Your fight will be easier because the City foolishly squandered so much money on things like Beachwood, Pacific Ridge and N Wavecrest that they won't be able to put up as much resistance. Its like a fighter who punches himself out in the early rounds and doesn't have the financial stamina to go the distance.

This was so predicable. Anyway, hang in there. And yes both your sign and NP3 are still fully errect.


Great babble, Hyman. I'm sure all the mud-brains of HMB are impressed. But what the heck is happening with the actual sale of that eco-terrorism blighted lot, the sale you have promoted all over this message board and are supposed to be so good at making.


Hey Clay-man,

Are we not operating under the same measurements?

You took off-air a comment a week ago (with virtual soap) that used the word "crap".

Now when a Realtor uses it, it is OK I guess: "What is a pile of crap - says Steve Hyman, Realtor".

Of course he is a potential/or actual advertiser of the Review.

Show a little backbone, will ya?


Joe you make a good point. Steve Hyman and Brian Genna can use this C word but a plumber who has every right to use the word gets deleted?.

Don't despair Joe, people who work in a profession that is bound by a code of ethics such as real estate brokers,lawyers are going to be in for a shock especially those affiliated with closing the CFMC without giving 48 hour notice to the county (or anyone else).

Oh and one more thing seeing how we are on this thread FYI.Steve Hyman sold this bluff top lot to Tony 2 years ago when the market was hot Tony bought it through Hyman because Hyman thought it was a good investment as it had a water conection and Tony was speculating. Tony figured it out that this lot was a bad deal and wanted to dump it.It wouldn't sell so this c**p thread was started by Hyman to generate a sale.


Well, I might have bought it because I feel so sorry when the hopes and dreams of land specualtors go awry and want to help out. But now it has all these damn holes and mud bogs in the vicinity of the for-sale sign. What fool thought that would make the place more appealing?


Have to admit, I can't remember why I would have said that here although many things I see on the Coast would meet that description. Perhaps Clay gives more latitude to posters using their real names but that's something you should take up with him.

As far as these PUDS go, they are not for the average Joe. These lots in this area are long term investments till they can become buildable. Every lot I sell includes the City zoning for this area so prospective buyers know what they are getting into.

Of course, the whole point of this thread and the 2 follow-up ones was to show the lack of respect some people on the Coast have for another's personal property and their right to sell it. It also gave me an opportunity to bring to the public's attention some of the zoning abuses that have been put on its citizens. I knew from before I buried this 4x4 post 3 feet in the ground that it would be vandalized because of the visible and sensitive location. Within 2 weeks it was knocked down and supported by 60 lbs of concrete. That too proved insufficient for the zealots so was fortified with a total of 250 lbs of concrete and a oversized red-legged frog standing guard and the #3 to memorialize the number of attacks.

It seems this is what was needed to keep my sign up here. And as of last week, it is still standing with NP3 proudly standing guard partially assisted by the overgrown conservation easement that fronts Tony's lot. Thanks for bringing this up again.


Schizo Steve, in one paragraph saying buyers know what zoning they are getting into and in the next complaining about zoning abuses.

I wonder, should he be disclosing the psychiatric drugs he might be taking (appropriate for his behavior) to his buyers and sellers?


There is nothing inconsistent giving a prospective buyer the specific zoning regulations for a particular property and telling them that sometimes these regulations have run amuck. Here we've got both PUD zoning and the City creating at great expense a 50 foot wide conservation easement restricting access to many properties. Everybody is free to form their own opinion as to why this was done and how it benefits the property owners like Tony.


Don't get it do you, Hyman. Not surprising from one who claims no responsibility for selling properties to people who obviously can't afford them.

Zoning is what it is when a person buys a property. That is what a person must be content with. Nothing else is assured. Bad-mouthing the same zoning by a "professional" Realtor gives buyers the idea such properties might reasonably become something else. Legally you can skate around this one without being touched, but ethically you are in the mire once again.

Got pills?


There's not much interest in your topic, Hyman. You've only gotten over 3200 hits and almost 300 comments so far. Can't you find something that might be of interest to us coastal dwellers?

Maybe those very few poor lost souls that appear here or just hit it for lack of something better to do are enthralled with your curious shadow.

Comments like, Got pills?, Schizo Steve, should he be disclosing the psychiatric drugs he might be taking (appropriate for his behavior), against the wishes of a whole community, your continuing self-promotion, Did all the uninformed babble about eco-terrorism prove to be a good technique and produce a buyer?, Maybe one of the land-loving property rightists will buy it and relieve his commission-drought angst., What is the greater crime, vandalism, or filing false police reports?" and so much more is what keeps me coming back.

I mean, how can anyone resist? Such insight. Such eloquence. Such profound vision. Such wisdom. Need I say more? Is it possible to say enough?

It's almost like a private, one on one with the Dali Lama. Life always has more meaning after our local self exalted one speaks. Hummmm, hahummmm.

It gives us all something to aspire to. I feel so blessed and humbled.

Slander and ignorance must be the pinnacles of life, for those terribly disturbed that is.


My, my...does our much derided NP now have a clone or is it just himself morphed into another repugnant form, adhering to its chair by its own slime? "Slander and ignorance"...take a good look at yourself "Bill", or is it Karl? Would a prairie pancake by another name still have the same foul smell? I think so.


You have to love it when one idiot does not get the gist of another. Maybe wee Wemoan and Bill could meet up with commission-desperate Hyman and agree to help him out in another failed attempt to publicize the lot he lists on Railroad Avenue. I see these guys/gals as useful for tasks like standing on the side of Highway 1 waving arrow-shaped signs directing passerbys to Tony's lot. It couldn't do worse than anything tried so far by our notorious Realtor.


Life always has more meaning after our local self exalted one speaks. Hummmm, hahummmm.


Did Lord George say something? Just asking, as I suspect his sycophants must be on a special wavelength with him now perceptible to normal people.


That's "not perceptible," but Bill will misinterpret even with the correction.


Who is this Lord George?

Are you just reaching out grasping for a figure? Like the blindfolded child swinging a stick at their piñata?

Maybe I'm Sue, or Bob, or one of your multiple personalities.

Does it matter who I am. Isn't it you that say it's not the person, but the writing that's important?

Poor Now Pitching. So confused and alone.


Bill: It looks like we might agree on something...of course NP is alone; who could stand the wetland odors of rotting weeds and red-legged frog feces.


The kiddies huddle up, trying to convince themselves the resident vacuum between their ears allows them to understand without benefit of information. May I suggest enrollment in the Church of JD?


OK, that's it. I'm going to stick a fork in this one. Thanks for playing.


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